Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
Frank and Jesse James watched a protest march of unarmed families marching for peace when Union soldiers opened fire on them. Forget Kent State, this was women and children.
They say the James boys cracked. The boys joined a Raiders group that scalped yankees and mutilated bodies.
But in their minds eye, they saw people peacefully exercising their right to protest being murdered in the street. That changed their lives.
These types of actions were happening all over the country though only the NYC draft riots are ever covered. There were many Kent States, made more appalling because they were unarmed families.
You want a what if? How's this:
You vote for a man who promises there will be no war. You wake up one morning and discover there is a war, and you are going to be drafted. You discover the neighbor next door is being carried out of his home by soldiers, others emerge carrying his possessions. You ask someone why and they reply he told a joke about the President.
You are in shock. You move to call the newspaper, but a voice comes on saying that the paper has been closed by order of the President and the editors jailed. You ask why, and you are told they are being held without charges until the war is over.
You watch as neighbors begin to march with their families singing gospel songs as soldiers open fire on them.
A man runs out screaming that his children are in the march and a woman asks you his name. You tell her, and she says she is watching the block for the President as she runs to tell a soldier.
As you report for the draft you see the newspaper on sale. You buy one and there is an article about how great the President is. You don't know it, but it was written by the President!
You meet the paymaster. He asks if you support the President. You say you are confused. He tells you until you support him, you will get your checks after everyone else.
A nightmare? No, this was the North under Lincoln. Whether you think it was justified or not.
The massacre of Black Soldiers by the Confederacy is a documented case. However, if you want horror stories--go to the times of the Inquisition where 2,000 or more women, children, infants were tossed bound into an firey oven to be burned alive. The women to whom the torturers ripped off their breasts in front of their nursing babies and relatives, then stuff the bleeding breast into the mouth of the baby as to have the baby choke. How about the 'stake,' where it was shoved up into a man or woman's orface and pierce the interior lining of that opening as to cause them a long agonizing and painful death as their bowels could not pass nor their liquid waste. How about being pulled apart in four directions at once until limbs were pulled off, skin peeled off live humans, being sawed in half while alive.
All Civil Wars are known to be most savage. Many of the overseas' Civil War are more savage, some countries remain savage today.
Witch trials of American 'Salem' Mass., wasn't exactly a pleasant site. Modern science has discovered it was all due to hysteria and the LSD affects of some of the grain people had. Doesn't mean that the injustice is any less important--just proves; some people will act like elephant rear-bumpers that leave 'rubbish' to remember one by--one big pile of 'slick.'
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
Just a small note, that in 1893 there was an over all depression. That did not help restoring the war torn states.
The depression of 1893, happened between President B. Harrison (23rd) presidency and President Grover Cleveland's presidency (24th) --Grover Cleveland served as the 22nd President as well.
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
If Lincoln was so great, I wonder why that wasn't noticed while he was alive? Interesting article:
LINCOLN AND HIS LEGACY by Joe Sobran ...
For those not aware of who Mr Sobran is, he is an extreme conservative columnist who used to be a senior editor for William F. Buckley's National Review. In 1993, Mr. Buckley fired him in a controversy over Mr. Sobran's extreme anti-Zionist/anti-Semitism position.
He has been a commentator on CBS radio and a syndicated columnist. He's writing books these days, but I wouldn't say he is publishing them with any major historical presses.
I see why djpsychomike likes him, though, same style: never actually support what you say with evidence, make lots of charges, ask sarcastic rhetorical questions as if the question is the answer, etc., etc. Doesn't want to be confused by the facts, I suppose.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Neither did Kent State. Didn't happen during the Civil War. Kent State did not hurt the Constitution when it did occur--which was not during the Civil War.
Thus the point.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
I am so old, I remember Mr. Buckley in Washington, DC -- as well as met him briefly.
I would have to agree with dismissal of an individual, to whom renders 'hot air' and no documentation to support the debate.
It is also fact, that people will skew any document as to be shaped into something another person wishes to make it. I see this in politics, religion and catty behavior in private social circles.
Personally, such 'look at the birdie while stirring a cup of mud' just causes me to give them no credibility. I will soon just ignore whatever is said or written--respect is earned; not an expectation--at least for me.
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
The actions of the Inquisition didn't harm our Constitution. It didn't even exist during the inqusition!
Sigh. The Portuguese (1821) and Spanish (1834)Inquisitions extended into the Nineteenth Century. The Papal States version was last and ended activity somewhere in mid-century. They were around while the Constitution was around, but the Inquisition didn't have that kind of power in America.
But you present us constantly with fantasies, movies, and unsubstantiated propaganda as the basis for your beliefs. When you do refer to any historical event or fact, you are close to being universally wrong in what you describe. The nonsense you put out is more harming to the Constitution and American liberty, IMHO, than any of the things you imagine Lincoln did.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
And this thread has degenerated from a very plausible what if into a Lincoln bashing debacle.
To add a little bit to what trice said, Mr. Sobran is a libertarian, a group which also contains the likes of Thomas DiLorenzo. These men do not seem to understand that at desperate times, desperate measures are called for. The so called mass arrests, on par with the Gestapo of Nazi Germany are a myth propogated by men of their ilk. They consistently take the words of men like Jefferson and completely twist them out of context and try to use them to prove points that are invalid and can't be held up after close examination. Plus, they are not even historians, a group they seem to disparage quite a bit. DiLorenzo is an economist, and Sobran is a journalist, whose degree is in English. Not a person that I or most any real academic would use for a disertation. Discussing history is one thing. Twisting it to fit your own agenda is a complete other. And that is what Sobran and DiLorenzo do.
So, without further ado, lets get back to the what if, shall we? That is what this thread is about.
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
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