Cleburne in Control

[civilwarbuglertn]

What if Cleburne had been given control of the Army of Tennessee at Atlanta instead of Hood? What do you think would have happened.

[samgrant]

Might have given Sherman a different set of obstacles to overcome, and may have delayed the capture of Atlanta, but don't think it would have prevented the fall of that city. As to after Atlanta, ...........?????????????

(I hate this kind of question.)

[gary]

A. P. Hill proved very competent as a division commander but left a lot to be desired as a Corps Commander. We know what Lee did to Hill. Cleburne would be unprovened and Hardee or Cheatham would be more likely candidates.

Still, Ol Pat turned in a very credible performance as a division commander and as a trainer. I would expect that he would have done a lot more ambushes to wear out Sherman while being forced to retreat. Pat would have known that holding Atlanta was unfeasible in the face of a larger army and that a siege would end in capitulation (ala Vicksburg). Like Johnston, Pat would have skedaddled too. Johnston did have one big ambush planned, but Hood came along in time to prevent Uncle Joe from springing it.

[samgrant]

Originally Posted by gary

A. P. Hill proved very competent as a division commander but left a lot to be desired as a Corps Commander. We know what Lee did to Hill. Cleburne would be unprovened and Hardee or Cheatham would be more likely candidates.

Still, Ol Pat turned in a very credible performance as a division commander and as a trainer. I would expect that he would have done a lot more ambushes to wear out Sherman while being forced to retreat. Pat would have known that holding Atlanta was unfeasible in the face of a larger army and that a siege would end in capitulation (ala Vicksburg). Like Johnston, Pat would have skedaddled too. Johnston did have one big ambush planned, but Hood came along in time to prevent Uncle Joe from springing it.

G.

Can you enlighten us about that ambush plan?

S.

[gary]

OK, not really an ambush. Read on.

Johnston planned to fight at PeachTree Creek. The Union Army of the Cumberland had to cross the Chattahoochee River and this meant that Sherman's command would be divided during the moment of crossing. This is exactly the type of battle that Johnston wanted to fight at Seven Pines. (At Seven Pines, Johnston wanted Longstreet, Hill and Huger to concentrate against the III and IV Corps who were isolated from Franklin & Sumner who had the Chickahominy as a barrier to their reinforcing those two isolated Corps). Similarly, Johnston would refuse Hood on his right and in so doing, use Hood to delay Schofield and McPherson from advancing from Decatur. Using his other two Corps, Stewart & Hardee, Johnston would strike the isolated Army of the Cumberland.

It's based on Napoleon's strategy of fighting from the position in the center. Basically, you get between your opponents, defeat one contingent and rout them, then uniting your forces, turn on the other and defeat them too.

Hood denied that Johnston suggested the plan. Johnston at the time he met Hood stated that he would give Hood all the credit if it succeeded (and if it failed, Johnston would accept all the responsibility). Hardee however was present and post-war, was present when Johnston told this plan to a third party. Johnston then left the room and Hardee was practically in tears saying that the old man had it all planned out, that it would succeed, but Hood refused to listen. Sorry but I forgot which book I read that in.

[PINCKNEYUSMCRET]

Not as knowledgeable about all of this as you folks, but if I understand it, General Cleburne would probably have continued in the Johnston mode. It appears that Davis and some in the congress wanted a more aggressive operation, thus the choice of Hood. Did Johnson share this plan with Davis? If he did, it must have been rejected. All in all the outcome would not have changed.

[ole]

Hood denied that Johnston suggested the plan. Johnston at the time he met Hood stated that he would give Hood all the credit if it succeeded (and if it failed, Johnston would accept all the responsibility).

Johnston's plan, as noted was to strike the AotC as it was crossing Peachtree Creek. Hood's plan was to strike the AotC as it finished crossing and before it got entrenched. The difference? I'd guess Hood was aiming to get everybody at once rather than let those on the other side of the creek get away.

Johnston's plan was better. Hood's relied on very close timing -- after this and before that -- a commodity rarely reliably available. Timing is not so important in Johnston's plan -- hit them when they're partly across. They'll be attempting to reform and spacing out to make room; they'll be milling about and will have no time to organize and entrench -- easy pickings.

Did Johnson share this plan with Davis?

Highly unlikely a battle plan is shared with the CnC. A campaign, certainly; not a battle.
Ole

[gary]

Concur with Ole. Johnston never knew when he was going to fight and he always looked for a favorable opportunity when he could attack only a portion of the enemy's with the majority of his own. He tried it at Seven Pines and wanted to do it again at Bentonville. Peach Tree Creek would be no exception.

However, since Johnston didn't know when the opportunity would present itself, he couldn't tell Davis in advance. This is something that Davis couldn't stand since was the type that needed communication (no matter how useless it was).

[whitworth]

The Confederacy was too provincial to appoint General Cleburne to head an army. Foreign born, interesting politics, and the lack of a sheep skin from West Point would rule Cleburne out.
Once saw the sword of General Cleburne at the Atlanta History Center in Atlanta, Georgia.

[gunny]

As successful as Hood was in his leadership roles as brigade and division commander - as well as Cleburne - I think the only advantage Cleburne would have was his physical condition. And maybe not even that. He suffered severely from illnesses directly related to his gunshot wound before the war and never really recovered. He was somewhat frail. He wasn't present at Jonesborough and suffered regular illness.

I think the outcome would have remained the same. The loss of Atlanta.