What if they 'switched' presidents?

[Battalion]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

Davis was cited for bravery several times... and? Your point is what?
He was an officer; he did his job and got credit for the valor of his men.

You make it sound as if he did nothing exceptional...just a routine "job"-

Buena Vista

"Just as the Americans were beginning to rout, Jefferson Davis, accompanied by Douglas Cooper, ran to the front of the brigade in which his regiment was incorporated, and ordered them to stand firm against the Mexican charge. Cooper then rode down to one end of the line, ordering the officers to form a giant 'V' pattern, as Davis rode down the other with the same order. Davis saved the day, as the Mexicans were utterly defeated by the stand. Davis then fell with a bullet in the foot."
http://www.us-civilwar.com/cooper.html


"At Buena Vista the riflemen and Indiana volunteers under Davis evidently turned the course of battle into victory for the Americans by a bold charge under heavy fire against a larger body of Mexicans. It was immediately on this brilliant success that a fresh brigade of Mexican lancers advanced against the Mississippi regiment in full gallop and were repulsed by the formation of the line in the shape of the V, the flanks resting on ravines, thus exposing the lancers to a converging fire. Once more on that day the same regiment, now reduced in numbers by death and wounds, attacked and broke the Mexican right. During this last charge Colonel Davis was severely wounded, but remained on the field until the victory was won. General Taylor's dispatch of March 6, 1847, makes special complimentary mention of the courage, coolness and successful service of Colonel Davis and his command."
http://www.civilwarhome.com/jdavisbio.htm


"Col. Davis, though severely wounded, remained in the saddle until the close of the action.-His distinguished coolness and gallantly at the head of his regiment on this day entitle him to the particular notice of the government."

......-from General Zachary Taylor's report of the Battle of Buena Vista

http://www.history.vt.edu/MxAmWar/Ne...1847MarApr.htm

[samgrant]

While it is very hard to suggest a better alternatve to J. Davis as president of the CSA, I can't agree that one's success as one's the military experience would be the best qualification for the position of president.

It is clear that Lincoln, whatever his inexperience, matured into a darned good president, while the same cannot be said of J. Davis.

[johan_steele]

Battalion; In the Mexican War Davis did his job; well enough to be mentioned in dispatches. How many other men on the frontier, Mexican War & Civil War did their job as well or better? A lot.

Perhaps you should look to the definition of a Colonel in the US Army at the time. In short he was doing his job.

[matthew mckeon]

I've read that Davis's combat experience was actually a drawback when it came to the Civil War, because it gave him too much confidence in his military judgement. An interesting question is would he have been a good division or corps commander? IMO he might have been happier as an army officer than as president.

If we give Davis Lincoln's political, and administrative skills(and thick skin), could he have done a better job than the historic Davis in organizing victory? Probably. The more brittle Davis, whose main flaws (to me) seem to be oversensitivity to personal slights and an inability to delegate would have had a tougher time reconciling the various factions in the North.

[larry_cockerham]

Davis was trying to run a war much in Lyndon Johnson fashion in Virginia. His commanders were very capable soldiers who didn't need all his help. In the west, he was working by remote control such as it was. An under populated army without the industrial resources of his "opponent" doomed the entire operation from the outset. Still the war could have been won by the Confederacy on a couple of occasions without the much needed Divine providence that happened. Lincoln was balancing a very tight rope and did so in an admirable political fashion. He would have fared better perhaps if he'd kept his head down. No pun intended.

[Battalion]

Originally Posted by samgrant

While it is very hard to suggest a better alternatve to J. Davis as president of the CSA, I can't agree that one's... military experience would be the best qualification for the position of president.

My reply was not in regard to Presidental qualifications...but to the unwarranted smear of Davis by Mr. Steele which amounts to junk history......

I posted sources.

He has none to back up his claims.

Originally Posted by sam

It is clear that Lincoln, whatever his inexperience, matured into a darned good president...

Jailing/expelling political opponents, rigging elections, shutting down newspapers, burning cities...
.....somehow I don't see this as "good"

Originally Posted by sam

while the same cannot be said of J. Davis.

Davis faced a far different situation than Lincoln-

..................................South........... ...North
Industrial Production........10%................90%
Military Age Population.....20%................80%
Navy..............................0............... ...Large

.......imagine the situation reversed and Lincoln and the North with these disadvantages.
What may have been the result?-

Fredericksburg,1862.....Burnside with 50,000 (instead of 100,000+)....Lee with 100,000+ (instead of 50 thou)

Chancellorsville,1863........Hooker with 60,000......Lee with 130,000

...that is...if the war lasted to 1863.

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Battalion

My reply was not in regard to Presidental qualifications...but to the unwarranted smear of Davis by Mr. Steele which amounts to junk history......

I posted sources.

He has none to back up his claims.

Still haven't figured out the job of a Colonel in the US Army I see. You know very well that I never said Davis lacked courage. Courage is expected of an officer. So is integrity, fortitude, perseverence. But there is more to being a man than just courage.

Incidently the only sources you posted reference Davis at Buena Vista. Come to think of it I don't believe I contested those sources.

Originally Posted by Battalion

Jailing/expelling political opponents, rigging elections, shutting down newspapers, burning cities...
.....somehow I don't see this as "good".

Kindly inform me who was the opposition in the CS election of Jeff Davis. Voter returns, political slogans etc... whoops Davis wasn't elected was he? So much for a CS democracy eh? Would you care to mention the CS passport sys, slave passes, CS examples of arbitrary seizure of property deemed Unionist (including newspapers) ...burning cities I love that good old fall back of the Lost Cause. War, bad things happen; it isn't pretty. Atlanta was so badly burned it had newspapers being published 3 days after Sherman and his men left and when the Georgia govenor arrived to visit a couple weeks later he noted 180+ wagons loaded w/ loot. Columbia... started by retreating CS troops... not a whole lot of enthusiasm on the part of US troops to put out the fire; can't say as I blame them. Regardless this has nothing to do w/ the premise of the thread.

Originally Posted by Battalion

Davis faced a far different situation than Lincoln-

..................................South........... ...North
Industrial Production........10%................90%
Military Age Population.....20%................80%
Navy..............................0............... ...Large

.......imagine the situation reversed and Lincoln and the North with these disadvantages.
What may have been the result?-

Fredericksburg,1862.....Burnside with 50,000 (instead of 100,000+)....Lee with 100,000+ (instead of 50 thou)

Chancellorsville,1863........Hooker with 60,000......Lee with 130,000

...that is...if the war lasted to 1863.

But that wasn't the premise of the thread was it? If you wanted the South to win... get rid of Bragg in 62 and Davis. It is interesting how you note CS victories here... you do know that Lee won both of those engagements don't you?

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by larry_cockerham

Davis was trying to run a war much in Lyndon Johnson fashion in Virginia. His commanders were very capable soldiers who didn't need all his help. In the west, he was working by remote control such as it was. An under populated army without the industrial resources of his "opponent" doomed the entire operation from the outset. Still the war could have been won by the Confederacy on a couple of occasions without the much needed Divine providence that happened. Lincoln was balancing a very tight rope and did so in an admirable political fashion. He would have fared better perhaps if he'd kept his head down. No pun intended.

Once again Larry I think you have hit the nail square. I don't think I would have thought to compare Davis's style of leadership to LBJ but it is apt and the more I think about it the more sense it makes.

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Battalion

I posted sources.

He has none to back up his claims.

I confess that this irritates the ever living...
big smile, think happy thoughts.

Jefferson Davis by Cooper
Jefferson Davis, Constitutionalist: his letters Papers & Speeches by himself
Jefferson Davis, Ex President of the Confederate States of America, A Memoir by his wife
Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government by himself
Jefferson Davis, The Man & His Hour by William Davis

I don't care for the man and the more I read the less I like him; he was a politician and a proficient one. He was outmanuevered, out politicked and out general & chiefed by Lincoln. He was appointed to his first and last political position through IMO backstage political manuevering. IMHO opionion he was a coldly calculating man who did his best to get the best advantage of every situation; a drama king.

Are my opinions wrong? Could be; but who won & who is remembered by history?

[samgrant]

Here's a link that william42 posted on another thread. It somewhat contrasts Lincoln vs. Davis as war presidents.

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2005/112005/11192005/146207