Was McClellan largely responsible for the reverses the Union suffered up to sept 1862

[william42]

This is a cartoon I found in the Lilly Library Collection on Indiana Universitys web site.


http://www.indiana.edu/~liblilly/cartoon/shall.html

[samgrant]

I'm repeating a post I made elsewhere as it may fit here also:

I have recently read in Lincoln's Generals, a collection of essays ed. by Gabor S. Boritt; in a piece by John Y. Simon, Simon says (with no citation or attribution):

That in August of 1864 (at about the time that Lincoln had members of his cabinet sign, sight unseen, his pledge to continue to pursue the war even if he lost reelection and to work with whatever president-elect to that end)

"Lincoln intended, he explained later, to call upon McClellan after his election victory to raise troops for one last desperate effort for victory. By implication at least, Lincoln had decided that Grant could not win the war; only McClellan could defeat the Confederates."

Well this set off ALARM bells in my mind. I'd never read/heard anything like THAT before!

By 'his election' does he mean Lincoln's or McClellan's? Which would turn the meaning of these words in different directions!

At this point in the war, from what I have read, Lincoln had much confidence in Grant, with only minor reservations.

This so disturbed me that I endeavored to send a question about this issue to Mr. Simon. I got thru to an intermediary who told me my questions ( I also asked a question about just when and where Grant was informed about Lincoln's death) would be forwarded to Mr. Simon.

Any one ever read/hear anything like this about Lincoln reconsidering McClellan in 1864?

[CChartreux]

Sam -

I've never seen that either and find myself as shocked as you. It will be interesting if/when John Simon replies to you (especially given that Simon is probably the foremost expert on Grant).

Do please let us know about the response you get from him; I know I'd be interested to see what he says.

[samgrant]

Originally Posted by samgrant

I'm repeating a post I made elsewhere as it may fit here also:

I have recently read in Lincoln's Generals, a collection of essays ed. by Gabor S. Boritt; in a piece by John Y. Simon, Simon says (with no citation or attribution):

That in August of 1864 (at about the time that Lincoln had members of his cabinet sign, sight unseen, his pledge to continue to pursue the war even if he lost reelection and to work with whatever president-elect to that end)

"Lincoln intended, he explained later, to call upon McClellan after his election victory to raise troops for one last desperate effort for victory. By implication at least, Lincoln had decided that Grant could not win the war; only McClellan could defeat the Confederates."

Well this set off ALARM bells in my mind. I'd never read/heard anything like THAT before!

By 'his election' does he mean Lincoln's or McClellan's? Which would turn the meaning of these words in different directions!

At this point in the war, from what I have read, Lincoln had much confidence in Grant, with only minor reservations.

This so disturbed me that I endeavored to send a question about this issue to Mr. Simon. I got thru to an intermediary who told me my questions ( I also asked a question about just when and where Grant was informed about Lincoln's death) would be forwarded to Mr. Simon.

Any one ever read/hear anything like this about Lincoln reconsidering McClellan in 1864?

Mr. Simon's 1st reply:

Your inquiry to Morris Library has been sent to me for a response. You ask about my essay "Grant, Lincoln, and Unconditional Surrender," page 187, where I had written "by implication at least, Lincoln had decided that Grant could not win the war; only McClellan could defeat the Confederates." I based this thought on the material on page 180 where Lincoln had placed McClellan on the agenda for the Fort Monroe conference and on the content of Lincoln's secret memorandum for his Cabinet to sign indicating that the war must be won in cooperation with the winning party in the election before the inauguration of a new President. I might have added a citation to the Hay diary, but I did not.
You also ask about where Grant learned of Lincoln's assassination. According to the memoirs of Mrs. Grant, the elder Grants had reached Philadelphia on their way to New Jersey, and were waiting for water transportation. Whether the Grants knew about the assassination before they got off the train in Philadelphia is unclear, but perhaps immaterial.
I hope the above answers your questions.

The FortMonroe Conference was a meeting between Grant and Lincoln on July 31, 1864 (About 2 weeks after Early's threat on Washington). It is unknown just what they disscussed

After a few follow-up questions, Mr. Simon's 2nd reply:

Thanks for your intriguing questions. To answer the first, I refer you to the diary of John Hay for November 11, 1864, where Lincoln reveals the contents of the secret memorandum and says, according to Hay, that he intended to have a conversation with McClellan if he won the election in which Lincoln would propose: "You raise as many troops as you possibly can for this final trial, and I will devote all of my energies to assisting in finishing the war." As for the third part of your question, concerning which command McClellan might take, I left it vague because it is vague in my mind. I think the most likely command would have been of the troops around Washington, meeting the threat of Jubal Early, essentially the command that Sheridan took. Since we are in the hypothetical realm, who is to say that McClellan would have accepted such a command or that, pressed to a decision, Lincoln would have offered it?
Again, my thanks for these intriguing questions.
By the way, if you visit our website you will see the announcement of our meeting May 5-7. Perhaps you can join us.

John Y. Simon
Ulysses S. Grant Association
Morris Library
Southern Illinois University
Carbondale, IL 62901
618-453-2773 (office)
618-549-5963 (home)
618-453-6119 (FAX)

According to the Lincoln Log for Nov. 11, 1864 (three days after his re-election):

"Cabinet meets. President gives John Hay sealed document and asks him to open it. Cabinet members learn contents for first time, although they signed it on August 23, 1864. Contents pledged them to support President-elect after November election. Hay, Letters and Diary."

Contents of the document:

"This morning, as for some days past, it seems exceedingly probable that this Administration will not be re-elected. Then it will be my duty to so co-operate with the President elect, as to save the Union between the election and the inauguration; as he will have secured his election on such ground that he can not possibly save it afterwards."

[samgrant]

Originally Posted by samgrant

Mr. Simon's 1st reply:

Your inquiry to Morris Library has been sent to me for a response. You ask about my essay "Grant, Lincoln, and Unconditional Surrender," page 187, where I had written "by implication at least, Lincoln had decided that Grant could not win the war; only McClellan could defeat the Confederates." I based this thought on the material on page 180 where Lincoln had placed McClellan on the agenda for the Fort Monroe conference and on the content of Lincoln's secret memorandum for his Cabinet to sign indicating that the war must be won in cooperation with the winning party in the election before the inauguration of a new President. I might have added a citation to the Hay diary, but I did not.
You also ask about where Grant learned of Lincoln's assassination. According to the memoirs of Mrs. Grant, the elder Grants had reached Philadelphia on their way to New Jersey, and were waiting for water transportation. Whether the Grants knew about the assassination before they got off the train in Philadelphia is unclear, but perhaps immaterial.
I hope the above answers your questions.

The FortMonroe Conference was a meeting between Grant and Lincoln on July 31, 1864 (About 2 weeks after Early's threat on Washington). It is unknown just what they disscussed

After a few follow-up questions, Mr. Simon's 2nd reply:

Thanks for your intriguing questions. To answer the first, I refer you to the diary of John Hay for November 11, 1864, where Lincoln reveals the contents of the secret memorandum and says, according to Hay, that he intended to have a conversation with McClellan if he won the election in which Lincoln would propose: "You raise as many troops as you possibly can for this final trial, and I will devote all of my energies to assisting in finishing the war." As for the third part of your question, concerning which command McClellan might take, I left it vague because it is vague in my mind. I think the most likely command would have been of the troops around Washington, meeting the threat of Jubal Early, essentially the command that Sheridan took. Since we are in the hypothetical realm, who is to say that McClellan would have accepted such a command or that, pressed to a decision, Lincoln would have offered it?
Again, my thanks for these intriguing questions.
By the way, if you visit our website you will see the announcement of our meeting May 5-7. Perhaps you can join us.

John Y. Simon
Ulysses S. Grant Association
Morris Library
Southern Illinois University
Carbondale, IL 62901
618-453-2773 (office)
618-549-5963 (home)
618-453-6119 (FAX)

According to the Lincoln Log for Nov. 11, 1864 (three days after his re-election):

"Cabinet meets. President gives John Hay sealed document and asks him to open it. Cabinet members learn contents for first time, although they signed it on August 23, 1864. Contents pledged them to support President-elect after November election. Hay, Letters and Diary."

Contents of the document:

"This morning, as for some days past, it seems exceedingly probable that this Administration will not be re-elected. Then it will be my duty to so co-operate with the President elect, as to save the Union between the election and the inauguration; as he will have secured his election on such ground that he can not possibly save it afterwards."

Still not satified I asked a few other CW writers/historians to ask what they thought. Here are 2 replies:



I interpret this to mean that Lincoln would ask McClellan, as the president-elect, to use his influence to bring into the field enough Union soldiers to finish the job--not soldiers that McClellan would lead, inasmuch as Mac would be in the White House in March.


As for Grant, he was not winning the war at that point in a timely enough fashion to re-elect Lincoln. Had Lincoln;s re-election depended on Union operations at Petersburg and Richmond, McClellan would have won the November election.


Best regards,


GWG

************

That claim by John Simon has always bothered me, too. I think he
meant that if McClellan beat in the election, Lincoln intended to ask
McClellan--during the four-months interval between election and
inauguration the next March 4--to raise troops and command them in a
last desperate bid. This was Lincoln's thinking in August, before
Sherman's capture of Atlanta and Sheridn's victories in the Shenandoah
Valley. Those victories changed everything, and assured Lincoln's
reelection, so nothing more was ever heard of the McClellan scheme.
James McPherson

[whitworth]

A man who could train a large army; a man who was clueless how to lead and fight a war.