Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
Both previous wars against the rebel colonies/ USA were fought with the B team, with simultaneous European (and in the 1st case, East Indian) conflicts absorbing much more of the effort.
The attitude in London was in deadly earnest. Full mobilisation was underway, with the naval reserve being activated, the militia and volunteers warned for mobilisation etc.
Had Lincoln not conceeded the principle, the Union could have found themselves facing another two British armies (one at Montreal, and another on the Niagara frontier) each the size of the Army of Northern Virginia/ Mississippi, plus a smaller force (probably a Division or two) facing Maine from the Maritimes. *
That's perhaps a deal breaker in the ACW, very significant forces would have to be held ready to oppose the Brits (plus man forts etc.).
* The British had ca 70,000 regular infantry (not counting the Guards, Depot Bns etc.) in North America, the Home Islands or the Med available to deploy, about 16,000 cavalry (although I doubt that much would be sent), and around 600 field guns. To this the Canadians would add an estimated 120,000 militia and volunteers (assuming a 1/3rd response to Militia call up, which was typical of both US and Canadian call ups that decade)
From London's point of view, there was a Napoleon on the throne of France, just across the Channel, engaged in an imperial war in Mexico. Prussia was already practicing her brand of "Real Politik' in her goal of uniting the other German states under it's imperial crown. Russia was pushing to the Dardenelles etc. there was plenty on Britains plate without sending large elements of her fleet and Army to engage in a 'Third' war with America (The Times and the Jingoes in the public, may not have been aware of that history, but the PM and his Foreign Minister AND the Crown most assuredly were).
It is likely British Imperial Planners would look long and hard at plans to invade America from Canada, Paying particular attention to the prospect of large amounts of arms located where the Quebecois' might get at them. After all the French of Quebec might look with more favor on a country fighting to free a people than the British whom they viewed as foreign occupiers.
All in All, not a propitious time to go galavanting across the Atlantic, to provoke a war to preserve slavery.
Both previous wars against the rebel colonies/ USA were fought with the B team, with simultaneous European (and in the 1st case, East Indian) conflicts absorbing much more of the effort.
War of 1812 shows that isn't quite right; the English forces arrayed against New Orleans were the cream of the crop... as tough a veterans as ever fielded by the British.
Revolution... Cromwell & Baird were certainly not the B team. The troops they commanded certainly amatuerish by any standard. But then again those scraps aren't my area of expertise.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Keane's Brigade (left wing)
Rennie's Battalion of Converged Light Coys (Light Coys of 1/7th, 1/93rd and a Coy of the 1/43rd)
1st Bn, 93rd Highlanders (from garrison duty in South Africa)
1st West Indies (from WI)
wing of the 3rd Bn, 95th Rifles
Gibbs' Brigade (right wing)
Jones' Battalion of Converged Light Coys (in the Swamp) (Light Coys of 1/4th, 1/44th, 2/21st and 5th WI)
1/4th King's Own (from Peninsula)
1/21st Royal Scots Fusiliers (from Army of Italy)
1/44th (from garrison duty in Spain)
wing of 3/95th Rifles
Lambert's Brigade (reserve)
14th Light Dragoons
1st Bn, 7th Royal Fusiliers (from Peninsula)
1st Bn, 43rd Light Infantry (from Peninsula)
5th West Indies (from West Indies)
Thorton's Column
85th (from Peninsula)
As you can see, the vast majority of the Army committed was from garrison posts, and they took the bulk of the casualties (in fact, the majority been inflicted on the unfortunate 1/93rd as it countermarched from the left to the right wing).
The 'B' team would be the amatuerish higher command of the British Army. the Crimea proved that the higher echelons of the British Military command left a lot to be desired. In any case, with the problems brewing in Europe and the Empire, it is very likely that a 'B' team would be in command in N.A., 'again'. The 'A' Team (IF it existed) would likely be held back in case of need in other, more important (in imperial terms) areas and, hopefully, for a better cause than slavery.
Keane's Brigade (left wing) Rennie's Battalion of Converged Light Coys (Light Coys of 1/7th, 1/93rd and a Coy of the 1/43rd) 1st Bn, 93rd Highlanders (from garrison duty in South Africa)
1st West Indies (from WI)
wing of the 3rd Bn, 95th Rifles
Gibbs' Brigade (right wing)
Jones' Battalion of Converged Light Coys (in the Swamp) (Light Coys of 1/4th, 1/44th, 2/21st and 5th WI) 1/4th King's Own (from Peninsula)
1/21st Royal Scots Fusiliers (from Army of Italy)
1/44th (from garrison duty in Spain)
wing of 3/95th Rifles
Lambert's Brigade (reserve)
14th Light Dragoons 1st Bn, 7th Royal Fusiliers (from Peninsula)
1st Bn, 43rd Light Infantry (from Peninsula)
5th West Indies (from West Indies)
Thorton's Column
85th (from Peninsula)
As you can see, the vast majority of the Army committed was from garrison posts, and they took the bulk of the casualties (in fact, the majority been inflicted on the unfortunate 1/93rd as it countermarched from the left to the right wing).
Thanks for the Info... but I highlighted the troops I understand to have been hardened Veterans that seriously put that smack down upon the French in Spain and several would be present a few years later at Waterloo and be well and truly in that mix. W/ that exception I don't see much wrong w/ your analysis. Though I don't believe the Guards Brigade would have held a candle next to say... Hazens Brigade, Wilder's or worse still the "Iowa Brigade" to name just a few. Frankly I can't see many UK troops dealing favorably w/ the troops of the AoC or AoT (US). They could shoot straight and outmarch the finest troops in the world. They had a history of holding against long odds and were certainly among the finest the US had to offer. Just MHO.
I'm not as convinced as some that the RN would have walked right over the top of the USN... I think my thoughts aren't unfounded as the Brits thought twice about interceding in the little squable we call the ACW and opted out of the whole operation.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
The Royal Navy ships of the period could most certainly have crushed any other navy in the world. But, where would they operate from? Large ports with adequate coaling facilities would be required. If the RN were unable to use their giant ironclads, then victory would not be certain. There would also be the possibility of the US Navy turning to commerce raiding. There is no way the British government would risk a fleet of CSS Alabama equivalents being turned loose on British trade.
While the Royal Navy had its own ironclads, some of which, like the HMS Warrior, predated the Monitor (and also in terms of technology as being the first ship with a flush toilet - altough the Monitor was the first ship with exclusive flush toilets and submerged toilets at that), the wood ships of the Royal Navy could not stand up to our small fleet of monitors. Granted, it would have to be a coastal action, but the USN didn't have to sail to England to defeat the Royal Navy. They could wait for them here.
While the Royal Navy had its own ironclads, some of which, like the HMS Warrior, predated the Monitor (and also in terms of technology as being the first ship with a flush toilet - altough the Monitor was the first ship with exclusive flush toilets and submerged toilets at that), the wood ships of the Royal Navy could not stand up to our small fleet of monitors. Granted, it would have to be a coastal action, but the USN didn't have to sail to England to defeat the Royal Navy. They could wait for them here.
The Monitors weren't that numerous. In fact, at the point the Union and UK were closest to war the Union had no ironclads in commission (while the UK had 11, after Meteor was scrapped).
When wooden warships came up against ironclads they acquitted themselves well (Hampton Roads excluded, but those wooden ships weren't even steamers). People forget wooden ships weren't unarmoured, they just had less armour (typically 36 inches of hard wood, which equates to ca. 3 inches of US laminate iron).
The 'B' team would be the amatuerish higher command of the British Army. the Crimea proved that the higher echelons of the British Military command left a lot to be desired. In any case, with the problems brewing in Europe and the Empire, it is very likely that a 'B' team would be in command in N.A., 'again'. The 'A' Team (IF it existed) would likely be held back in case of need in other, more important (in imperial terms) areas and, hopefully, for a better cause than slavery.
Lambert's Brigade (i.e. the one from the Peninsula Army that reinforced the force in Louisiana) was meant to go to Canada. It went to LA because Keane was recognised to be incompetent, and so sending reinforcement, with a commander who happened to be senior was a diplomatic way of easing him out.
Lambert returned to Europe, and commanded the same Brigade (as the 10th British Brigade) at Waterloo.
This is the typical British method to deal with incompetants, post them where they can do no harm (such as a Barrack masters post) or keep them under more competent officers.
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