what if jackson had been in command at culps hill

[nbforrest]

Originally Posted by milhistbuff1

NBForrest,

Lee, courtesy of his smaller army was able to move quicker, smaller wagon train, smaller columns etc. My point in the prior post was that Lee might have pursued a lot faster since if he was able to gain the heights he would have lost far fewer than the 28,000 men lost in the actual July 1-3 battle. as a result, Lee would be too close to meade's tail to allow him to set at pipe creek, he would have to keep moving. You are correct about Washington's fortification strength. Launching a proper siege would have been foolish. He would not have to "siege Washington" per se, just cut the rail lines specifically, the B&O, threaten the city and meade's army assuming it's in the city manning the works, with starvation. Obvious not the most ethical course but militarily it would get the results desired, foreign recognition or we starve you to death.
Respectfully,
Matt

I fail to see how the smaller ANV would have somehow crushed the AOP then turn on Washington. Then, in an area devoid of supplies, starve out Washington DC when supplies could reach DC through the Potomac. Lee would have to take out Harpers Ferry as well, or have the VIII Corps troops operating in his rear.

And as Porter pointed out, I am confused as to how you say the ANV could turn around and crush the AOP in nothing flat, when you said Lee was the South's worst general

Respectfully

[milhistbuff1]

NBForrest,
My posts criticizing General Lee are based on what actually happened. This thread concerns what would might have happened had Jackson not died of pneumonia, a totally separate set of circumstances. I believe had both Jackson and Longstreet been present at Gettysburg, victory would have gone to the CSA.

Respectfully,
Matt

[nbforrest]

Even assuming you have your desired command structure, this part of my post remains unanswered:


I fail to see how the smaller ANV would have somehow crushed the AOP then turn on Washington. Then, in an area devoid of supplies, starve out Washington DC when supplies could reach DC through the Potomac. Lee would have to take out Harpers Ferry as well, or have the VIII Corps troops operating in his rear.


Respectfully

[milhistbuff1]

Lee could not be supplied by any route including where VIII was operating, save commandeering the B&O until July 14th when the flood waters of the potomac receded Besides, wouldnt Lincoln recall VIII corp as soon as news of Meade's reverse reached him in order to occupy Washington DC?

[nbforrest]

Lee could not be supplied by any route including where VIII was operating, save commandeering the B&O

Even if the Union cavalry just sat around and didn't inderdict the B&O, what would Lee have used the RR for? He had no supply depot. The B&O went westward into Union territory...it would have been useless for him. Lee knew that operations in Northern VA were not feasible in 63. That is exactly why he pulled back from Meade's Centreville line and tore up the Orange & Alexandria.

Respectfully

[milhistbuff1]

Originally Posted by nbforrest

Lee could not be supplied by any route including where VIII was operating, save commandeering the B&O


The B&O went westward into Union territory...it would have been useless for him. Lee knew that operations in Northern VA were not feasible in 63. That is exactly why he pulled back from Meade's Centreville line and tore up the Orange & Alexandria.Respectfully

It would eventually become useless, yes. Commanders, competent or not, generally send cavalry to screen their movements. Send JEB Stuart on a controlled "Joyride" focusing on communications, tearing down miles of telagraph lines and sever the rail lines from Washington DC. to prevent anyone from communicating with DC or allowing those in the city to break out except by sea. Then Lee could interdict and intercept Union supplies still flowing in because they dont know anything is wrong, yet. It would not necessarily require a 2nd military victory, Just the theat of starvation of the city or the union army would do the trick. Assuming, Lee had cooperation from the CSA navy its possible that the navy could conduct a close in blockade with an ironclad or two. If the Merrimac and Albermarle were available that part of the Union blockade could not refuel and or have the capability except for the monitor and few other ironclads, who were probably nowhere near DC. If this was done, Washington would panic and be more likely to bow to a negotiated end to the war in CSA favor.

Respectfully,
Matt
Respectfully,
Matt

[bill_torrens]

Admiral Porter,

The British got scared off when we threatened retaliation if they continued to allow British built ships fall into the hands of the Confederacy like the Florida and Alabama.

I'm not sure that it is possible to say that the most powerful nation in the world was "scared off"...particularly by a government which, when presented with the opportunity to go to war over the Trent crisis, backed down.

Queen Victoria often got annoyed with all the constant colonial wars and I highly doubt she would approve of a full scale war

As a constitutional monarch, Queen Victoria's preferences were of no consequence. Her government made wars; she didn't.

Bill

[nbforrest]

It would eventually become useless, yes. Commanders, competent or not, generally send cavalry to screen their movements. Send JEB Stuart on a controlled "Joyride" focusing on communications, tearing down miles of telagraph lines and sever the rail lines from Washington DC. to prevent anyone from communicating with DC or allowing those in the city to break out except by sea. Then Lee could interdict and intercept Union supplies still flowing in because they dont know anything is wrong, yet. It would not necessarily require a 2nd military victory, Just the theat of starvation of the city or the union army would do the trick. Assuming, Lee had cooperation from the CSA navy its possible that the navy could conduct a close in blockade with an ironclad or two. If the Merrimac and Albermarle were available that part of the Union blockade could not refuel and or have the capability except for the monitor and few other ironclads, who were probably nowhere near DC. If this was done, Washington would panic and be more likely to bow to a negotiated end to the war in CSA favor.

No, the B&O would always have been useless to Lee. Railroads connect supply depot...Lee had no supply depot to connect with. It was just a RR track he couldn't use. And you are still not accounting for the fact that Northern VA was devoid of sustinence. Maryland had no supply lines for Lee either. An army can't sit in front of DC while relying on forage to eat. And I still don't see where the AOP would be. If Meade for some reason panicked and retreated, he would go straight to DC. If the idea of laying siege to DC had been feasible it would have been done. Johnston realized the idea was impracticle all the way back in 61.

Respectfully

Respectfully

[Admiral_Porter]

I'm not sure that it is possible to say that the most powerful nation in the world was "scared off"...

The US was angry after the British allowed the CSS Florida and CSS Alabama escape from Liverpool. Those ships destroyed American shipping and British merchants felt that the US would soon retaliate against British trade ships.

Then word got out that the Laird Rams were ready to sail and Charles Francis Adams sent these words:

"All the appliances of British skill to the arts of destruction appear to be resorted to the purpose of doing injury to the people of the United States. It is not unnatural that such proceedings should by regarded by the government and people of the United States with the greatest alarm, as virtually tantamount to a participation in the war by the people of Great Britain."

Later:

"It is my painful duty to make known to your lordship the grave situation in which both countries must be placed in the event of an act of aggression against the United States by either of these formidable weapons."

Only after Lord Russell realized the grave situation he was in did he order the Laird Rams to be seized.

Britain later paid $15,000,000 in gold for the Alabama Claims.

They had more to lose than gain in a war against the US.

particularly by a government which, when presented with the opportunity to go to war over the Trent crisis, backed down.

Lincoln understood there was no reason to go to war over a couple of diplomats. He was being the smart politician that he was.

As a constitutional monarch, Queen Victoria's preferences were of no consequence. Her government made wars; she didn't.

I'm aware of that but would they have engaged in a major war without consulting her?

I doubt it.

Lee had cooperation from the CSA navy its possible that the navy could conduct a close in blockade with an ironclad or two. If the Merrimac and Albermarle were available that part of the Union blockade could not refuel and or have the capability except for the monitor and few other ironclads, who were probably nowhere near DC.

The Virginia was already at the bottom in 1863 and was totally unseaworthy anyway. She had poor engines, took 30 minutes just to turn 180 degrees, and had a very deep draft which is why Tattnall was unable to save the ship after Norfolk was evacuated in 1862.

The North Atlantic Blockading squadron was right there keeping the Albemarle cornered.

Time and again during the war Confederate ironclads could disrupt Union flotillas but once the initial contact ended the Federals were always able to bring superior numbers to bear.

The Confederacy never came close to breaking the blockade so I don't see how they could have suddenly accomplished it in your scenario.

[Admiral_Porter]

My posts criticizing General Lee are based on what actually happened. This thread concerns what would might have happened had Jackson not died of pneumonia, a totally separate set of circumstances. I believe had both Jackson and Longstreet been present at Gettysburg, victory would have gone to the CSA.

But Jackson and Longstreet were subordinate to Lee. Lee was making the decisions which those two generals then carried out.