What if Ft. Sumter had not been fired upon?

[sean_harris]

Shane, you refer to a man's word being his bond. I ask you then , how due you feel about many of the same people you applaud in the Federal gov. breaking multiple treaty and bonds with the Indian? After all, the Indian war's continued during Civil War.

Many are the same men whom claimed slavery was evil and must be destroyed. How do we, the United States free one group while destroying another. Gov. policy is and always will be a matter of choice, gain, and benefit.

[unionblue]

Sean,

How do you feel about the people in the South who promised to uphold the 13th & 14th amendments and then refused negro sufferage and the right to vote?

Pick a time, a region and a people, to include Indians, whites, negroes, etc., and you will find some things they now feel ashamed over. The trick is to learn from the shameful acts of the past so that our children and grandchildren will not repeat them.

And if we of the present can get past the past, maybe we will help them have a better future.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[sean_harris]

Neil,

At what point due you learn from past mistakes? How many generations does it take? I assume the North failed to learn a thing about human rights, honesty, or treaties by fighting in the Civil War. If so, they may have treated the American Indian and a slew of other ethnic groups better. After all, we know the South did not learn anything.

Honestly, the people of the South? I look to the Supreme Court and it stripping away the 14th and 15 Amendments. Need I look further than the Supreme Court validating state legislation? How due you explain a Federal system that brought us Plessy v. Ferguson in 1896?

What about Williams v. Mississippi in 1898? Once again the Court voided grandfather laws, but validated literacy tests... they displayed a general willingness to let the states define their own suffrage standard as long as the evasions were not to glaring.

The United States created the 14th and 15th Amendments to benefit the Freedman, but chose to ignore them, like many other things. It would seem to me that laying total blame on respective states is wrong. After all, were these states not past deviants? Was the Federal government not the parent that should lovingly discipline it's wayward child? Then again, "That's fine son, I will condone it this time!"

The Federal government, only enforced what the states had done. In fact, they made it legal... after all the Supreme Court is the "Law of the Land."I am sorry to say it only took until the 1960's to attempt to fix these past issues. Issues, we still face today across this nation.

[unionblue]

Sean,

You are absolutely correct, the Federal government leaped on that bandwagon of white supremecy by actions of the Supreme Court, the White House, Congress, State governments, and individual citizens of this United States.

There is no denying that Indians, blacks, women, Irish, German, Itailian, Arabs, (insert race here), Jews, Catholics, Mormans, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, (insert religion here), handicapped, the mentally ill, lepers, (insert short-coming here), etc, have suffered because of this and other actions taken by said groups at present and at various times in this nation's history.

There is simply no denying your points above as they did happen and they are a part of our history. The only thing that gives me hope about my nation and it's past is two things. We are a young nation and if you are young, you are prone to make many, many mistakes.

I have raised a child and have trained 18-year old soldiers and have lived in the United States almost all of my life. I was born in the '50's, lived through the rage and heartache of the '60's, served most of my time in the Army during the self-centered '70's and the greedy '80's, retired at the start of the '90's and now see my nation at war in the 21st century. Of course we are going to make mistakes and we have made them, big ones. But we put them on stage for all to see, which makes me angry and embarressed at times, but fills me with hope.

The second reason I have hope is, that we try. We don't always succeed at doing better or learning from our mistakes or past, but we try, unlike some other countries or places on this planet. I can't help it, but I firmly believe that this country is a force for good in the world. Sometimes we retreat from that, sometimes we ignore problems, within and without, but I have hope because we are like Winston Churchil said, 'after exhausting every other possibility, the United States will do the right thing.'

Sometimes doing the right thing is like a ball that is tossed back and forth between father and son. Sometimes the son catches it, sometimes the father. Sometimes the Federal government does right, sometimes the States, and sometimes the people make them both do right.

Yes, we still face issues from our past across this nation, issues that could have been solved if we as a people had a longer attention span, a bit more courage and a lot more resolve.

But I still have hope.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on January 31, 2005)

[unionblue]

Ole,

Sorry for dragging this thread off-topic.

Unionblue

[johan_steele]

Sean, you have just defined perfectly why I am a cynic and my "love" for all politicians and lawyers. While America is a far from perfect place and it should never be claimed that we set any morality records w/ people down the ages the US has shown itself no better and certainly no worse than any other power. While I maintain my opinion of Mr Davis I have never thought of American politicians after as any less of a bastard than he.

My wife has just done a wonderful job of defining me, I am a Cynic who still has hope for the human race.

I grow weary of people exclaiming how bad we in the US are/were/will be. And the hypocricy of the "Southern Gentry" is proven, in my eyes, by Aphillbilly explaining his stance. In short , unless I have misread something, a mans word should only be good so long as the man or country you give it to is someone you agree with. There is the crux of my problem w/ the neo-confederate, pro CS, CS apologist ad nauseum. That view leads some to say that when the going got tough the south ran away w/ everything they could grab on the way out. I'm glad I've lived in the south and know that such a view towards a mans word is by no means the majority.

Shiloh is hallowed ground, if you wish to see mass graves of Union soldiers I encourage you to look at the disposal of Union remains at Battery Wagner... and those at Ft Pillow were left for the crows. I wonder why orders were given to leave the wounded and pick up their valuable rifles at Shiloh... it might have been because CS commanders knew Union surgeons and men would care for their wounded and dieing.

(Message edited by johan_steele on January 31, 2005)

Well, if thine eye offends thee........


The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.
* Ralph Waldo Emerson





(Message edited by aphillbilly on February 01, 2005)

[johan_steele]

Those spoons were commerce cutters, mints, forts, armories etc...

In skating over thin ice our safety is in our speed.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

(Message edited by johan_steele on February 01, 2005)

[ole]

It's been a kick, Neil, seeing the way this thread has developed.

I discovered a lot of hot buttons: which word would bring which member to a state of slavering rage. And which member would say something snippy or semi-literate and say nothing more.

Thanks for your input and to all others, the same.

[rbenne]

Am I to understand that if a man takes an oath to his government, and then breaks it and bares arms against it. he is an inexcusable traitor?

Because if so you must paint G. Washington with that same brush. To say Washington was any different than Davis in this argument makes no sense at all. GW Was a British Military officer and obviously an American officer in the revolution.

While supporters of Davis can, with good logic, claim Davis's country was Virginia that can not be said of Washington since his country was obviously England.