Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
I think both sides, especially in the beginning of the rebellion/Civil War; felt that West Point Grads had the 'smarts' in all things 'war' and, true many did have previous fighting experiences, .e.g. Mexico, Indian Wars, etc.
B'lieve your correct, M.E. In the beginning, there were no leaders except those tired old men who ought to have retired from service years ago. (Except that there was no pension. Hence, the tired old men stayed on.) These guys were mostly dinosaurs and involved heavily in the generations-old ideology. It took years to get the fresh, innovative, combative youngers to rise to leadership.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I think both sides, especially in the beginning of the rebellion/Civil War; felt that West Point Grads had the 'smarts' in all things 'war' and, true many did have previous fighting experiences, .e.g. Mexico, Indian Wars, etc.
Even to this day in all our armed services there is a bias that academy grads are just a cut above their other fellow officers.
It makes sense for it is the academy grads that run our armed services not citizen solder types.
In the time of war and in combat the true warriors always rise to the tops be they an academy grad or citizen soldier. The problem is giving the citizen soldier a chance..... the academy grads usually get the opportunities to shine before the citizen soldier....
Gen. Dick Taylor is an example....
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
In addition, the notion that women could not fight in war, e.g. Revolution, War of 1812, Civil War and on through Viet Nam.
However, it is documented that women indeed fought in many wars and in many battles fell. The example of bravery, for example of "Pickett's Charge" a woman guised as a male fell close to where Brig. Armistead fell at the stone wall. Discovered by death alone--her true name never known gives validation to 'The Unknown Soldier-' is gender neutral. However, the hardships suffered by men and the few women that are documented via historical records--mainly medical discoveries; prove that if there is a 'will' to fight--a soldier will do so. Although male dominated; there were so many boys, men and elder soldiers fighting with the few women, who filled the ranks.
Taking about three and one-half years to weed out and or toss out the old soldiers and ways; is only one reason for the progress finally made in the Civil War and the turn about for the Union. Yet, old "Fuss and Feathers" the Old Soldier-- General Winfield Scott and his Anaconda plan would have worked if it was followed by those from McClellan on down.
We can look prior, the American Revolution had brilliant citizen soldiers and with the help of General Von Stuben; 'organized' and gave it 'discipline' beyond the civilian militia. There was teeth in the bark of all these militia men--it was the discipline and tactics of working as 'one' and tempering the egos of individuals heading their own militias into a 'confederacy' to act as one army--not joint and going in all directions; this finally allowed victory. As with any campaign; it contiues to prove out that the beginnings may not be as smooth but, when soldiers become veterans and beyond the excitement, fantasy, drama --they get very professional and very serious.
Speeding up into modern times; we still have citizen soldiers. They are now called the "National Guard." Though a militia--they have proven time and again--they can do extremely well and perhaps a better job then someone who is considered 'professionally trained.' Quality of training will permit those to rise to the surface--the 'cream' and the very best.
It also proves that politicians are easy to create war--it takes a soldier to end it. I look at our future election politics -- Obama and Clinton have never picked up a rifle. They have not been there in the 'deadly space.'
All veterans have given their tomorrows for our todays--just like so many have done in the American Civil War.
Professional soldiers or civilian soldiers/militia/National Guard --they are heros. Plain and simple. I'm sure there are many heros here. [Smiles]
[SALUTE]
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
General Winfield Scott and his Anaconda plan would have worked if it was followed by those from McClellan on down.
But the Anaconda plan did work although, at the time, it was forgotten that it was Scott who first suggested it.
The blockade went into effect and gained, throughout the war some considerable affect. The Western Rivers took center stage early in the war -- all part of Scott's suggestion, but not credited to him.
Lest we overlook something, the Corinth Campaign, including Shiloh and the Forts Henry and Donelson, was as much designed to isolate Memphis and Nashville as it was to control the rivers and disrupt rail transport through Corinth. With St. Louis in hand and the acquisition of Memphis and New Orleans, there wasn't much left but Vicksburg to tighten the anaconda's coils. When Vicksburg fell, the became tighter.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
What if Jeff Davis had reached the Trans-Mississippi in May or June 1865 along with 10s of thousands of Confederate troops?...and then forming an alliance with France (Maximilian of Mexico)?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 04-07-2008 at 08:03 AM.
Seems to be closely related the the subject of the thread -- OK, I'll bite, what if he had made it that far?
First, we'll need to assume that he could have gotten there. Guess it was possible if he got to Florida and a suitable boat he could have made it to Texas.
Next, we'll have to figure out where he'd get 10's of thousands of troops. I'll figure the largest part of those would be trans-Mississippi soldiers. (Is it reasonable to figure that any significant number of east coast soldiers would walk that far?)
I'll stipulate that the trans-Mississippi might have sustenance available. How about powder and shot? Would they be able to get French aid through Matamoros? In time? Who would deliver such with no hope of payment for it?
And hadn't France already left Maximillian out to dry?
An interesting question, Battalion. What do you think?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Unimportant Confederate Victories-Arkansas and Louisiana
Originally, Scott's actual plan was an adjunct to Lincoln's already proclaimed Blockade of the South on April 19, 1861
Scott in a Letter to McClellan dated May 3, 1861, notes that a complete blockade of the Atlantic and Gulf ports is "soon to commence" and in connection with such a blockade, he (Scott) propsed "a powerful movement down the Mississippi to the ocean, with a cordon of posts at proper points." In this letter Scott notes that "It is the design of the Government to rais 25,000 additional regular troops, and 60,000 volunteers, for three years."
After Palm Sunday, 1865, Davis was a man on the run with no army or country. No foreign power was going to go to war to save the confederacy at that late date.
Seems to be closely related the the subject of the thread -- OK, I'll bite, what if he had made it that far?
First, we'll need to assume that he could have gotten there. Guess it was possible if he got to Florida and a suitable boat he could have made it to Texas.
Not likely, but possible, I suppose. He might even have been able to do it overland with some luck. Look at how long it took us to find Saddam in this century.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ole
Next, we'll have to figure out where he'd get 10's of thousands of troops. I'll figure the largest part of those would be trans-Mississippi soldiers. (Is it reasonable to figure that any significant number of east coast soldiers would walk that far?)
Really hard to figure where they'd come from -- or why the Confederacy would be better off with 10's of thousands in 1865 than with (what?) 300 thousand or more in 1864?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ole
I'll stipulate that the trans-Mississippi might have sustenance available. How about powder and shot? Would they be able to get French aid through Matamoros? In time? Who would deliver such with no hope of payment for it?
They'd be in bad shape on any kind of military equipment or supplies. If the French were going to support them, they would try to supply them -- but if the French were going to do that, they'd have done it while the Confederacy was in better shape, most likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ole
And hadn't France already left Maximillian out to dry?
No, not yet. In 1865, Grant sent Sheridan with 50,000 troops to Texas. On Feb. 12 1866 the US demanded the French withdraw their troops and they began patrolling the Rio Grande aggressively. They started a naval blockade of French reinforcements. On May 6th, they protested the presence of the Austrian "volunteers" to Austria. Napoleon III started withdrawing French troops effective May 31, 1866.
In 1864 the US Congress had passed a resolution refusing to recognize the monarchy of Mexico. Shortly afterwards, the French sent their first observation team to America's Civil War. Part of their report was still classified the last I heard (1970s), but it appears to have opened a few eyes in the French Army. Also, in 1866, the Austro-Prussian War broke out and it became apparent the French needed to concentrate at home.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Some excellent comments, many of which could start a new thread.
5Fish - absolutely agree, Dick Taylor was a lost gem, along with a lot of other 'non West Pointers'. For the Confederate cause, its unfortunate, that some key Generals were no in the correct places at the right time (thinking of the early Grant/Sherman partnership here for the Union).
ME Wolf - For along time I has been of the opinion that the Confederacy defeated itself (state rights) and to some extend that might be so, but the older I get, I am changing my opinion (only a little bit) about states like Georgia and NC and there role in the final defeat.
Ultimately, I think the Trans-Mississippi 'back water' status was assured, when the Mississippi River used as a dividing line between Departments (from memory it was originally part of the huge dept nos 2, but was re-organised after AS Johnstons death?).
Either way, it should have been used far more effectively to cover the left flank of Vicksburg.
Really hard to figure where they'd come from -- or why the Confederacy would be better off with 10's of thousands in 1865 than with (what?) 300 thousand or more in 1864?
The Trans-Miss. had 50,000 troops.
This number could be augmented by 10s of thousands of diehards from other departments who would trickle in by 50s and 100s over the following months.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
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