Ft, Henry swollowed!

[ole]

Donelson was all but impregnable from the water. As Larry pointed out, the river was navigable but narrow, leaving the gunboats little room to maneuver. Meanwhile, the fort had several very large guns on a high bluff. And they had the range on the bend around which the gunboats must come -- virtually in single-file. More than one boat floated back down river.

But, as Larry mentioned, the fort wasn't prepared for Grant's Army. (Nevermind that the commanders of the fort were criminally incompetent.)

ole

[larry_cockerham]

Ole, the Cumberland around Nashville was navigable and also much of the time walkable, either at low water or in the winter, frozen over. The folks commanding Fort Donelson weren't so much criminal as ill trained or just dumb and lazy. Besides, the Confederate courts didn't amount to much if anything. Forrest seemed to be about the only guy with good sense and that didn't come from some fancy military college.

[ole]

Ole, the Cumberland around Nashville was navigable and also much of the time walkable, either at low water or in the winter, frozen over. The folks commanding Fort Donelson weren't so much criminal as ill trained or just dumb and lazy. Besides, the Confederate courts didn't amount to much if anything. Forrest seemed to be about the only guy with good sense and that didn't come from some fancy military college.

The Cumberland was obviously navigable when the brown-water navy attempted to do to Donelson what it had done at Henry. But Donelson was admirably situated to stop river traffic. Pillow and Floyd exhibited criminal incompetence, and I fault Johnston and Davis for putting them in charge. With Buckner in command and a few thousand more troops, the attempted breakout might well have been successful.

Nashville would still have been abandoned, but there wouldn't have been the same story to tell.

ole

[larry_cockerham]

Originally Posted by ole

Nashville would still have been abandoned, but there wouldn't have been the same story to tell.

ole

It's my considered opinion that the Confederate war effort in Tennessee was grossly mismanaged, if at all, in the early months of the conflict. Had the supply system and the recruitment system been managed properly, with competent commanders been in place.... if a frog had wings rather than legs....

Grant's army should have been met in force on or near the Kentucky / Tennessee line. We could have had ourselves a good quick war on relatively flat ground. Win or lose, thousands of men could have returned to their homes and watched from a distance while Lee attacked Washington. The Confederacy's own mis-management probably had as much to do with extending the war as did the valiant efforts of the participants on both sides. Had the western theatre been handled with more skill, Lee would not have been running in circles without assistance against an equal or superior force. Might just be sour grapes from a Southerner, but I had to get that out.

Slavery needed to go as did Jeff Davis. A young nation needed to grow and change. It did. But what a mess in the meantime.

[whitworth]

The Confederacy always had a problem of resupply. Fort Donelson was a prime case. It had some 21,000 defending the fort, but it had a problem of supply.

Both the Tennessee and Cumberland Rivers were then very navigable with high water. Once Grant captured Fort Henry he was less than 11 miles from the Confederate lines at Fort Donelson. Fort Donelson was getting threatened from the west by infantry and artillery; attacked from their Cumberland River side by ironclads.
One must remember that Fort Donelson was some 84 miles from Nashville, with a small number of steamers available for resupply on the Cumberland River.
Grant with his navy in control of the Tennessee River, adjacent to Fort Henry, had a very short supply line.
Grant wrote in his memoirs, " On the day Fort Donelson fell I had 27,000 men to confront the Confederate lines and guard the road four or five miles to the left, over which all our supplies had to be drawn on wagons. During the 16th, after the surrender, additional reinforcements arrived."

Not only could Grant get adequate supplies, he could supply far greater numbers of troops than the Confederates had at Fort Donelson.

The Confederates were running out of supplies. They attacked Grant's position between Fort Henry and Fort Donelson with Grant later writing, "I heard some of the men say that the enemy had come out with knapsacks, and haversacks filled with rations."

The Confederate command soon realized it could not defend Fort Donelson with its present supply system. It was in the quandry of too many troops to supply; not enough to defend the fort for long.

After Fort Donelson fell, the way to Nashville was open. Grant's army took an abandoned Nashville with troops sent by steamer.

"None of the reinforcements from Buell’s army arrived until the 24th of February. Then General Nelson came up, with orders to report to me with two brigades, he having sent one brigade to Cairo. I knew General Buell was advancing on Nashville from the north, and I was advised by scouts that the rebels were leaving that place, and trying to get out all the supplies they could. Nashville was, at that time, one of the best provisioned posts in the South. I had no use for reinforcements now, and thinking Buell would like to have his troops again, I ordered Nelson to proceed to Nashville without debarking at Fort Donelson. I sent a gunboat also as a convoy. The Cumberland River was very high at the time; the railroad bridge at Nashville had been burned, and all river craft had been destroyed, or would be before the enemy left. Nashville is on the west bank of the Cumberland, and Buell was approaching from the east. I thought the steamers carrying Nelson’s division would be useful in ferrying the balance of Buell’s forces across. I ordered Nelson to put himself in communication with Buell as soon as possible, and if he found him more than two days off from Nashville to return below the city and await orders. Buell, however, had already arrived in person at Edgefield, opposite Nashville, and Mitchell’s division of his command reached there the same day. Nelson immediately took possession of the city." Grant's Memoirs


The U.S. and Grant had the steamers to get his troops to the point of attack, with greater numbers and supplied troops. The Confederate army could not match the ability of the U.S. Navy to move troops and supply them, at close distance.

[5fish]

I just want to bring up is that everyone speaks of Gen. Pillow when Ft. Donelson is mention. I beg to defer for the true commander was Gen. John B. Floyd, the former Sec. of War.

He work under Gen. Lee was wounded then shipped out west. What does that tell you? What Lee thought of him?

Gen. John B. Floyd was a political General so why did A.S. Johnston appoint him in command of Ft. Donelson. He should have been in charge of some backwater command not one of military importance..

What leadership in the west for the Confederacy?

[ole]

Had the western theatre been handled with more skill, Lee would not have been running in circles without assistance against an equal or superior force. Might just be sour grapes from a Southerner, but I had to get that out.

Your usual outstanding observation, Larry. How much of this lack of skill can be laid at the feet of Davis? How much for AS Johnston? Or was it, as Whitworth points out, mostly a lack of logistics? Who gets that fault? Davis? Johnston? The rashly impetuous CSA leadership?

It was obvious, when Grant was at the gates, that a breakout was the only alternative. Untutored Forrest managed that.

I'll go with Whitworth. The western theater was untenable from day one. It didn't much matter who was in charge. However, had Buckner been in charge at Donelson, he might at least have ducked the loss by decamping when decamping was possible.

Again. Thinking out loud.

ole

[5fish]

I come from a navy background and the captain goes down with his ship or he surrenders his ship. He does not pass the buck to his exec.

At Ft. Donelson, John Floyd pass the surrender of the fort to Gen. Pillow who in turn pass it to Gen. Buckner.

It sounds like rats leaving a sinking ship....

WE praise Forrest for being a rat and sneaking across the river to escape surrender. WE do not praise Gen. Floyd for escaping surrender by steamboat or Gen. Pillow for rowing across the river. They were all rats avoiding their responsibility and leaving their troops behind....

A question where was the union gunboats with all these people using the river to escape? Maybe the whole fort should have just jump in the river and swam to the other side for it looks like the union gunboats were not doing their job.

Why does one rat(Forrest) get praise for leaving a sinking ship and none of the other rats do?

Again, it is that Southern leadership in the west showing us their best.....


Did Gen. Lee run like a rat when he surrender his army?
The answer is NO!!

[ole]

The gunboats were downriver out of range of Donelson's guns. It would be easy enough to sneak across the river.

I don't think you can classify Forrest's action as sneaking away. He removed his command from danger of captivity.

ole

[5fish]

Originally Posted by ole

The gunboats were downriver out of range of Donelson's guns. It would be easy enough to sneak across the river.

I don't think you can classify Forrest's action as sneaking away. He removed his command from danger of captivity.

ole

If the Rats like Floyd, Pillow. Forrest could escape by river then why could not the hold garrison at Ft. Donelson by crossing the river or down the river.

Just Look:
Floyd leaves by steamboat with his two VA. regiments and heads down river.

Pillow leaves by crossing the river in a small boat.

Forrest and his men leave by jumping in the river with his horses and cross the river.

So why could they not save the hold or most of the garrison if the guns of the fort kept the union gunboats at bay?

Maybe one of these fans of the civil war in the west has an answer.

Think every night ship either regiments across the river or hold brigades. I know boats and steamboats may have been in short supply but drag out the siege until you got most of the garrison across the river.


I do not know why so maybe one of our esteem board members will have an answer...