Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
cw1865 is just not open to any suggestion that his precious Union could've/would've/should've been defeated. He and many like him are unwilling to see things as they were rather than as they have been taught to believe. It ain't his fault. It ain't their fault. If you look at the world through Blue tinted glasses you can't help but see things in a Blue hue. But you ain't seein' the truth and it will never set you free.
Let's see ...
What would Alexander do? What would Ceasar do?
The confluence of those big rivers is Key Terrain boys and girls. No doubt about it. More strategic than all the battlefields of Virginia combined. The confluence of those big rivers is the Key to the continent.
The war was won, or should I say lost, when good old General McCulloch refused to follow old Pap up to Lexington. The war was lost in Missouri.
I agree that had the idiot Texas Ranger done what common sense indicated the course of the war would have been very diffrent.
As far as the Idiot Texas Ranger goes I believe his statement was.
"Some of my men are down to 25 cartridges and not another to be had between Fort Smith and New Orleans."
I've always found it odd since a good number of Union forces were empty or nearly empty of cartridge box and Ol' Pap managed to resupply and fight an action in Lexington.
Note, Price's troops at this point were not CSA but Missouri State Guard resisting an illigal Federal invasion of a state that was not actually in rebellion. They would join the CSA untill later, after the Missouri Articles of Succession were passed and Missouri accepted into the Confederacy.
McCollough's forces were more a collection of co-operating state militia units rather than a CS Army.
As for the color of sack coats at Wilson's Creek, it didn't make a whole lot of diffrence. There were all sourts of troops wearing all sorts of diffrent uniforms or none at all. Just like first Bull Run there were Yankees in Grey and Rebs in blue. And just like Bull Run there several "friendly fire" incidents.
True Prices troops were State Guard and had been raised at first to resist invasion of Missouri from Northern or Southern Forces when Missouri was opting for neutrality as specified in the Halleck-Price truce.
It has always been my understanding (and I could be wrong, it's happened before) that McCullochs troops had been mustered in to CS service as volunteer units in Arkansas prior to his advance into Missouri. And that due to Mculloch holding a commission as a Brigader General in the regular CSA he felt no obligation to obey or concede to any orders from Price who was commissioned a Major General of State Guard by Gov. Jackson and no standing in the CSA as of yet.
The sck coat comment was a sopp to keep anyone from feeling left out.
Keep going guys. You're filling long-neglected gaps in my meager understanding of the TransMississippi part of the WBTS.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
cw1865 is just not open to any suggestion that his precious Union could've/would've/should've
You can look at my posts, John, with respect to strategy and tactics I'm pretty objective and fair minded (ole might not care for my Sickles defense though )
Now with respect to the 'should've' - I've said many times that Confederate forces 'should have' achieved something given the situation and overall I think the Federals 'should' win given inherent strengths; but yes, overall I think the Federals 'should' win in the sense that indeed, I am pro-Union.
In ref to the illegal invasion by Lyon I'm going to assume that rat is refering to Lyon siezing the armory at St. Louis and the action at Camp Jackson.
Prior to this the State Guard and Price were (supposedly) neutral as was Gov. Jackson (That I don't believe) and was prepared to resist eithier CS or US troops conducting offensive operations in Missouri.
Was Lyons "invasion" illegal? No not really he secured a federal armory. I have no doubt that Claiborne Jackson was bidding time to take Missouri out and Lyon thawrted that.
Not being in open rebellion meant Missouri was still Union so how do Jackson/Price deny Union troops the acess to the state.
Lyons seized a private family dwelling, the McDowell House, and then billetted US soldiers in it.
I believe this is / was in direct violation of the U.S. Constitution. Specifically the Third Amendment - No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Lyons seized a private family dwelling, the McDowell House, and then billetted US soldiers in it.
I believe this is / was in direct violation of the U.S. Constitution. Specifically the Third Amendment - No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Huh..yeah. And Lyon did nothing different than any field commander CS or US did during the war by using private residences as billets and HQ's.
I was actually refering to events after th Camp Jackson incident, although the legality of that action by Lyon is in question. I am refering to Lyon's May 11th declaration of war on Missouri, followed by his march on Jefferson City, which launched the campaign which culminated at Wilson's Creek. Lyon's stated objective was to drive the elected governor and legislature from the State and seize the state treasury. Where is it written that the Federal Government has the right to remove the elected state government of a state not in rebellion, occupy its capitol, and seize assets?
By the by, Lyon did not "seize the armory" at St Louis, it was already in his hands. What he did was surround a state militia which was on lawful training duty, under the flag of the United States.
More strategic than all the battlefields of Virginia combined. The confluence of those big rivers is the Key to the continent.
In a world where it would have taken the armies weeks to reach those rivers, when the Confederate and Federal capitols were only a couple day's march away, nothing that far west could have had any sever impact on the outcome of the war. Confluences of rivers are very important in any battle/war as you have pointed out. But these are just too far away from the theatre of war to make a difference. What good is having those rivers if the blockades still have them closed up at port? unless the Confederates can build a navy in the river it does them no good, the rest of their navy is locked out. So there are a few thousand confederates in MO, big deal. That means a few thousand less somewhere that it reallymatters that the Feds don't have to worry about. And when Richmond falls the 200,000 or so Union can train over and take care of them after. The North was never in danger from MO, it was never in danger from anywhere. The south lost the war when they fired on Ft. Sumter. Time has already told, hasn't it?
__________________ "In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
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