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I do not think it is a legend. I believe Grant realy said that. My theory, and only my theory, is that Grant probably did not realized he wrote the order the way he did and Thomas realizing a golden opportunity for his Army to vindicate themselves after Chickamauga grasped the opportunity. He was watching Sherman's attack as it failed and the ridge to his immediate front, he must have seen Bragg reinforcing his right from the center. A frontal assault is always the last resort, but in this case Thomas knew it would work. If the attack had failed Thomas had the Grant orders to cover him and if it was a success it would be history--which it is.
In their private conversation, I think Thomas may have suggested to Granger that an assault on the ridge might be in order since Bragg was strengthening his right. But he did not make it an order. Thomas, as honest as he can be did not lie when Grant asked who gave that order--he did not know.
Paul, you may very well be correct in your thinking. The view from the Knob at that time would cover almost the the whole ridge. One thing that I can not fault Bragg is his moving men from the center to his right. The approach to the ridge from the south is much easier than it was from the north or from the west.
If you are at Braggs center at his HQ, you will note the very steep valley just to the north. Moving men from his left would be slow and time was short. If Bragg had deployed his artillary better in the center and listened to his engineers, the story may have been different. Goodness knows, he had the time to do it correctly.
It was Rosecrans who's army that was at fault in the first place. Thomas made his stand and did it well. One other thing, shortly after the loss at Chickamauga, there was a large number of men sent north to chase after Wheeler and Roddy. Infact most of Wilders men left via the Friers Island Fort and headed in the directon of Dunlop and ended up running through Farmington, Pulaski and then back to Huntsville.
__________________ Located near Indianapolis, home of Col. Eli Lilly and the Eli Lilly Civil War Museum
Also, even though Grant or Thomas could not see everything, they did here quite a lot of cannonading and musket fring to their right about where Hooker should be. So Bragg had to know someone was on his left and taking soldiers from his left to reinforce the right, or the center, would have been foolish.
Thomas did not believe in frontal assaults unless he knew it would be overwhelmingly in his favor, so if Bragg had used the military crest instead of the physical crest he may have been able to hold Missionary Ridge for a while longer.
“I have been doing some research for an article I was going to write on George Thomas when I came across orders written by Grant to Thomas concerning Missionary Ridge. We all know that Grant wrote orders for Sherman, Thomas, and Hooker to take the rifle pits at the base of the ridge and then regroup for a push up the ridge.”
Not so! Sherman was to attack and take Tunnel Hill then move south on the ridge connecting with Thomas left and sweep the ridge. Originally Hooker was not included. In one of the latter, but similar orders Hooker was ordered to clear the rebels off Lookout Mtn. And attack Bragg’s left."
“These were more or less generic orders and Grant gave more orders between 8 November and 25 November, but all, including the soldiers, knew the ridge would have to be taken to end the siege of Chattanooga.”
There were about 5 similar orders to cover Sherman’s delays getting into position.
“Grant did give a specific order for Thomas to take the ridge:
"...I have instructed General Sherman to advance as soon as it is light in the morning, and your attack, which will be simultaneous, will be in co-operation.
Your command will either carry the rifle-pits and the ridge directly in front of them or move to the left, as the presence of the enemy may require...." O. R. Series I, Volume XXXI, Part II, page 44. These orders are dated 24 November 1863.”
These were in the several orders I mentioned.
Snips
“Orchard Knob was captured on 23 November; Grant gave his order from the Knob on 24 November for an attack on the ridge on 25 November; and there is no other ridge between Orchard Knob and Missionary Ridge. Grant ordered Thomas to assault the rifle pits and take Missonary Ridge.”
Grant gave Thomas a verbal order to “take the rifle pits at the foot of the ridge” after the written order of the 25th!
“General Grant walked immediately from me to General Thomas, distant about ten paces. I did not accompany him, though there would have been no impropriety my doing so. Generals Grant and Thomas were in conversation a very short time, perhaps two or three minutes, when General Thomas called General Granger, who stood near to him. After perhaps two minutes conversation between Generals Thomas and Granger, the latter came to me and said: “You and Sheridan are to advance your divisions, carry the intrenchments at the base of the Ridge, if you can, and, if you succeed, to halt there."
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So is the "Who ordered those men to take that ridge"(sic) quote just a legend?
samgrant
No!
From the same citation above:
“Pardon, Companions, the egotism of a few personal remarks. The assault of Missionary Ridge, throughout its entire extent, from base to crest, imposed a very great strain on me. I was conscious from the moment the skirmishers of my division commenced the ascent of the steep acclivity, that the movement was in direct contravention of positive orders, and that nothing but success could excuse this palpable disobedience of orders. I did not need to be reminded, by message of inquiry, sent by General Grant, through General Fullerton, asking whether I had ordered the assault, that I had gone beyond the pale of his orders, and that possibly dire consequences might flow from this disobedience. But the possible consequences, personal to myself, did not much trouble me in that perilous ascent. It was the result that I clearly saw would fall on my noble division, if the assault should be repulsed, that put the heavy strain on me.”
I do not think it is a legend. I believe Grant realy said 1that. My theory, and only my theory, is that Grant probably did not realized he wrote the order the way he did and Thomas realizing a golden opportunity for his Army to vindicate themselves after Chickamauga grasped the opportunity. He was watching Sherman's attack as it failed and the ridge to his immediate front, he must have seen Bragg reinforcing his right from the center. A frontal assault is always the last resort, but in this case Thomas knew it would work. If the attack had failed Thomas had the Grant orders to cover him and if it was a success it would be history--which it is.
In their private conversation, I think Thomas may have suggested to Granger that an assault on the ridge might be in order since Bragg was strengthening his right. But he did not make it an order. Thomas, as honest as he can be did not lie when Grant asked who gave that order--he did not know.
Grant's order was verbal!
There is no way that I know of to verify Thomas' thoughts.
Don; Your are right Sir, I bow to your superior knowledge. Sherman was ordered to take Tunnel Hill, Thomas the rifle pits, and Hooker Lookout Mountain. BTW, thank you for your hearty welcome to this forum.
In the orders I cited from the Official Records above I left out the final sentences, and here they are; "...If Hooker's present position on the mountain can be maintained with a small force, and it is found impracticable to carry the top from where he is, it would be advisable for him to move up the valley with all the force he can spare and ascend by the first practicable road." While this does not specify Missionary Ridge it is obvious that that is what Grant meant. From Grant's report of the battle; "...The appearnce of Hooker's column was at this time anxiously looked for and momentarily expected, moving north on the ridge with his left in Chattanooga Valley and his right east of the ridge. His approach was intended as the signal for storming the ridge in the center..." Series I, Volume XXXI, Part II, page 34. We all know Hooker was delayed repairing a bridge, but the point being that Grant and Thomas expected him to attack Missionary Ridge.
I could not find any orders from Grant ordering Hooker to attack Missionary Ridge. But did find corespondance from Thomas to Hooker; "Leave Carlin's brigade at the Summertown road, to rejoin Palmer. Move with the remainder of your forces, except two regiments to hold Lookout Mountain, on the Rossville road toward Missionary Ridge, looking well to your right flank." Ibid page 115.
You are very knowledgable of the Missionary Ridge. Did you have ancestors there? My G-G Grandfather was with 125th Ohio Voluteer Infantry 1862-1865. He survived the war, but suffered from illnesses the rest of his life until those illenesses finally killed him in 1916.
Don; Your are right Sir, I bow to your superior knowledge. Sherman was ordered to take Tunnel Hill, Thomas the rifle pits, and Hooker Lookout Mountain. BTW, thank you for your hearty welcome to this forum.
No bowing allowed to my superiot knowledge, cause it ain't superior just one bit added to others! In addition, I think I started this thread. My idea to explode myths surrounding battles etc. The myth here being the miracle of the charge as opposed to the men being trained to follow orders, which until Grant's verbal orders were to "take the Ridge."
In the orders I cited from the Official Records above I left out the final sentences, and here they are; "...If Hooker's present position on the mountain can be maintained with a small force, and it is found impracticable to carry the top from where he is, it would be advisable for him to move up the valley with all the force he can spare and ascend by the first practicable road." While this does not specify Missionary Ridge it is obvious that that is what Grant meant. From Grant's report of the battle; "...The appearnce of Hooker's column was at this time anxiously looked for and momentarily expected, moving north on the ridge with his left in Chattanooga Valley and his right east of the ridge. His approach was intended as the signal for storming the ridge in the center..." Series I, Volume XXXI, Part II, page 34. We all know Hooker was delayed repairing a bridge, but the point being that Grant and Thomas expected him to attack Missionary Ridge.
I could not find any orders from Grant ordering Hooker to attack Missionary Ridge. But did find corespondance from Thomas to Hooker; "Leave Carlin's brigade at the Summertown road, to rejoin Palmer. Move with the remainder of your forces, except two regiments to hold Lookout Mountain, on the Rossville road toward Missionary Ridge, looking well to your right flank." Ibid page 115.
OK!
You are very knowledgable of the Missionary Ridge. Did you have ancestors there? My G-G Grandfather was with 125th Ohio Voluteer Infantry 1862-1865. He survived the war, but suffered from illnesses the rest of his life until those illenesses finally killed him in 1916.
Paul
I read a lot about the west and in particular George Thomas.
Nope, no ancestors arrived on these shores until 1910.
I've been reading about Missionary and Orchard knob in "Sherman and Grant" by C.B. Flood.
He states that Thomas always believed that Grant waited in putting in Thomas and his 18,000 troops to give Sherman a chance to take a major role.
At three in the afternoon Sherman sent Major LB Jenney to go "signal" Grant as Sherman thought AoT was reinforcing.
These eyewitness accounts carry quotes and Grant later said there was trouble passing his orders down to the forward commanders.
Do you think the paper command you have is what was hard for the troops to "pass"? Or was it written after the fact as Grant truned to Thomas and then asked who ordered his men up the ridge - even, according to eyewitnesses threatening whoever gave the order if it failed?
I've been reading about Missionary and Orchard knob in "Sherman and Grant" by C.B. Flood.
Haven't read that one.
He states that Thomas always believed that Grant waited in putting in Thomas and his 18,000 troops to give Sherman a chance to take a major role.
I don't believe anyone knew what Thomas thought about Grant's motives. If you'll click on the URL in Msg. 84, above you can read the exact conversation by the participants.
At three in the afternoon Sherman sent Major LB Jenney to go "signal" Grant as Sherman thought AoT was reinforcing.
These eyewitness accounts carry quotes and Grant later said there was trouble passing his orders down to the forward commanders.
Do you think the paper command you have is what was hard for the troops to "pass"? Or was it written after the fact as Grant truned to Thomas and then asked who ordered his men up the ridge - even, according to eyewitnesses threatening whoever gave the order if it failed?
I've never heard of a "paper" command for Grant's final order @ 3:00PM the 25th. See the URL above. Try to imagine getting a verbal order to four division fronts about 5 miles wide. The orders were garbled, changed, and misunderstood.
Just curious,
Texas2nd
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