Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
If we were talking basketball, Bragg might be a Stephon Marbury instead of a Jason Kidd or a Michael Jordan. Marbury has lots of ability, but his teams can't seem to win and all seem to fall apart. I note that Marbury was traded for Kidd -- and the Nets started winning as soon as he got there.
Regards,
Tim
It's probably fortunate we're discussing the civil war rather than basketball. Aside from Jordan who was just another Tarheel, I don't recognize any of the names in your post. My reference is Cousy, Sharman, Russell and the Jones boys. Generation gap? (or two)
Well, that's not so. Thomas was a Corps commander here, and a very good one. Mendenhall, the brilliant artillery commander of the AoC, was responsible for both of these actions, more so than Thomas in the first, and with Thomas not at all involved on the second.
Regards,
Tim
Your right!
But, one outa nine ain't bad! I gotta learn not to talk off the top of my head.
It's probably fortunate we're discussing the civil war rather than basketball. Aside from Jordan who was just another Tarheel, I don't recognize any of the names in your post. My reference is Cousy, Sharman, Russell and the Jones boys. Generation gap? (or two)
No, I was just trying to stay current. I remember seeing Cousy, Sharman, Russell and the Jones boys play for the Celtics, although I paid more attention while Havlicek was playing and Cousy was gone. Besides, Cousy was a Holy Cross guy and he stopped coaching at BC before I got there.
Kidd plays for the New Jersey Nets right now, and has ever since he was traded from the Phoenix Suns for Marbury in 2001. With Kidd, the Nets were suddenly the #1 team in the NBA East, winning the Eastern title in 2002 and 2003. Kidd is currently 4th all time in triple-doubles, 8th in assists and 5th in assist/game, 13th in steals and 11th in steals/game. 7 time NBA All-Star, 6 times All-NBA Team, 8 times All-Defensive Team, co-Rookie of the Year in 1995 with Grant Hill. One of only three players in NBA history to record at least 12,500 points, 5,500 rebounds, and 7,500 assists in his career (with Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson). One of only four players in NBA history to lead the league in assist-per-game average for 3 consecutive seasons(Cousy, John Stockton, and Oscar Robertson). One of only two players in NBA history to average a triple-double in a playoff series of six or more games (17.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 10.2 apg) in the 2002 Eastern Conference Finals vs. the Celtics; Magic Johnson is the other player to do it). In addition, Kidd (like Cousy) is one of those who seems to make those around him play better.
Marbury ("Starbury", as they call him) is a very talented player who played for Minnesota, was traded to the Nets, was traded to Phoenix for Kidd, and was traded to the Knicks -- the most dysfunctional talent collection in the NBA right now. Teams seem to improve after he leaves them. He is known for his "me first" style of play. No one has ever claimed he made those around him play better.
Tim, a most impressive regurgitation of NBA trivia. Your knowledge of the civil war and that kind of affinity for pro basketball must keep you hoppin'. Keep up the good work; your contributions to the group add some interest and much needed enthusiasm.
...was just now able to retrive and post. I apologize if this is a duplicate for any of you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplez
And in your opinion, as with Tim, it is all Bragg's fault?
I know what my reaction would have been. I would have cashiered all these fools, particularly Polk or resigned my commission.
If my company fails, it'll be my fault regardless of what happened because I didn't stop it from happening.
So as to Bragg's culpability....?
Bragg had established precedent by not taking action(s) previously when his orders had been ignored allowing benefit of the doubt to the offender. It would have been tough to take such action now. If he turned any of his officers out, who'd been available to take those reins? If he'd resigned his commission, who could have filled that gap. He had no way to get out of the hole (and, granted that he'd dug it himself) for it wasn't like there were proven all-stars waiting in the wings who were capable of taking these jobs. Bragg was walking a tightrope... from early '63 was always outnumbered, outgunned and outsupplied... and was constantly under threat of being overrun or flanked. He could not at the time just throw up his hands and quit... couldn't even fire the offenders so tenuous was his situation... and earns some small degree of admiration for carrying the burden.
Just look at what occurred later at and after the collapse at Missionary Ridge. He did shed some of (who he judged to be) the most serious offenders and weakened himself considerably by doing so. He continued to allow his subordinates ******** to act/react and remained remarkably hands-off, concentrating on maintenance and administration rather that strategy and tactics. He got kicked. Then, finally recognizing after Murfreesboro, Chickamauga and Missionary Ridge that his prospect looking ahead were no better than looking back he tendered his resignation.
... and the BEST we could come up with to take his place was Johnston.
No... I'm not going to place all the blame on Bragg. He was ****ed if he did and ****ed if he didn't... in a true lose-lose situation. Bragg was the best we had at the time to do the job but he failed to meet the challenge (and I don't feel anyone could have met it any better than he had... other than Lee but if Lee had been in the West, the CSA's shortfalls just would have been transferred to the East).
Bragg came up short in many areas but he was playing a crappy hand, even facing Rosecrans and especially facing Grant.
In researching my novel, "The Boys of Chattanooga," I came to the conclusion that what had been written about the novel, including Dana's famous cable to Washington that the men of the Army of the Cumblerland had performed one of the most heroic charges in the history of military science, to be true. Grant never gave orders for the Army of the Cumberland to charge the ridge, only to take the final Confederate rifle pit at the base of the ridge. And Grant, to his credit, never claimed to have made such an order. Thomas never took credit for the battle either, or stated that he made the order to charge and neither did Granger. When questioned about the men chargine, Granger told Grant that he hadn't made the order but that once his boys got to going nothing this side of hell would stop them. Grant was unmollified, but could only sit back and watch as the charge unfolded.
Yes, I agree with one of the posters that a great deal of Federal victory had to be because of Confederate incompetence. Thomas noted during the battle that the Confederate cannon hadn't been placed well, and the defense of the ridge was inadequately planned. There weren't even supplies of ammunintion ready for the men if the Federals attacked the ridge. I note too that Bragg blamed his men for the loss while Grant and Thomas credited their men for the victory. The Confederate Army of Tennessee could have been much better led than it was. Grant and Thomas gained a great deal from Bragg's poor leadership, but it certainly wasn't from the Confederate soldier. Those men fought valiantly and only gave up the ridge when they were over run.
I have come to the conclusion that Chattanooga was the real turning point of the war. No one in the North knew that the balance in power had shifted after Gettysburg and Vicksburg. But Chattanooga drove the wedge into the deep South that the Confederate command dreaded. It also disrupted Southern rail lines. Chattanooga was the thorn in the Rebels' vitals that Lincoln talked about. Maybe as important was the morale boost that the great victory and incredible charge gave to the Union. Debate whether it was the turning point or not, but no one can say that it wasn't a climatic Federal victory.
In researching my novel, "The Boys of Chattanooga," I came to the conclusion that what had been written about the novel, including Dana's famous cable to Washington that the men of the Army of the Cumblerland had performed one of the most heroic charges in the history of military science, to be true. Grant never gave orders for the Army of the Cumberland to charge the ridge, only to take the final Confederate rifle pit at the base of the ridge. And Grant, to his credit, never claimed to have made such an order. Thomas never took credit for the battle either, or stated that he made the order to charge and neither did Granger. When questioned about the men chargine, Granger told Grant that he hadn't made the order but that once his boys got to going nothing this side of hell would stop them. Grant was unmollified, but could only sit back and watch as the charge unfolded.
Yes, I agree with one of the posters that a great deal of Federal victory had to be because of Confederate incompetence. Thomas noted during the battle that the Confederate cannon hadn't been placed well, and the defense of the ridge was inadequately planned. There weren't even supplies of ammunintion ready for the men if the Federals attacked the ridge. I note too that Bragg blamed his men for the loss while Grant and Thomas credited their men for the victory. The Confederate Army of Tennessee could have been much better led than it was. Grant and Thomas gained a great deal from Bragg's poor leadership, but it certainly wasn't from the Confederate soldier. Those men fought valiantly and only gave up the ridge when they were over run.
I have come to the conclusion that Chattanooga was the real turning point of the war. No one in the North knew that the balance in power had shifted after Gettysburg and Vicksburg. But Chattanooga drove the wedge into the deep South that the Confederate command dreaded. It also disrupted Southern rail lines. Chattanooga was the thorn in the Rebels' vitals that Lincoln talked about. Maybe as important was the morale boost that the great victory and incredible charge gave to the Union. Debate whether it was the turning point or not, but no one can say that it wasn't a climatic Federal victory.
One more fateful event occuring at Chattanooga; it brought together the Union's three main army commanders, who would bring the war to a successful conclusion for the North.
In researching my novel, "The Boys of Chattanooga," I came to the conclusion that what had been written about the novel, including Dana's famous cable to Washington that the men of the Army of the Cumblerland had performed one of the most heroic charges in the history of military science, to be true. Grant never gave orders for the Army of the Cumberland to charge the ridge, only to take the final Confederate rifle pit at the base of the ridge. And Grant, to his credit, never claimed to have made such an order. Thomas never took credit for the battle either, or stated that he made the order to charge and neither did Granger. When questioned about the men chargine, Granger told Grant that he hadn't made the order but that once his boys got to going nothing this side of hell would stop them. Grant was unmollified, but could only sit back and watch as the charge unfolded.
I have also done some research and come to the conclusion that the battle was won due to the fact that Thomas was a stickler for training. From November 8th until November 25th Grant issued several variations of his battle plan. In all but the last (orders Thomas to charge the Ridge and take the fortifications at the foot), Thomas’ left was to connect with Sherman’s right as he pursued the Rebels south on the Ridge and join the chase.
Of course we know that never happened. However, orders had to be given to the troops from the beginning, as to their duties during the battle. Whether that was repeated after each new Grant iteration is not known, yet. What is known is that Granger left a record of attendance of at least two meetings where the Army of The Cumberland’s assignments were given and explained. Wood made the same allegation about two meetings also. Whether they ere the same as Granger’s is not known. As you may know if you have had any military training, orders come from the top down. From Grant, the CinC, to Thomas, to the Corps commander, Granger to the Divisional commanders down to the platoon and squad leaders. What units will be in the “Line of Battle” who will precede them as “skirmishers.” Their position and order in the line of battle, their rate of march, whether to attach bayonets and load their weapons, their final goal, etc. In an important battle such as this, nothing should be left to chance, all must know their duty. I’m sure Thomas, known as an exacting task master, made sure these instructions were given and understood.
The “final goal” in all Grants plans, except the last, was to “take the Ridge.” So, the troops were cognizant of this final goal. Now, all the various orders of battle given by Grant were written, by him as was normally the case except the last, which if you’ll remember was a verbal order to Thomas. This was passed on to Granger who passed it on to the divisional commanders verbally, by aides. Some made it, (Baird as I recall had two variations, one to take the Ridge and the other to take the rifle pits), Sheridan got verbal orders (to take the pits and hold them) but asked for a clarification he never got. Wood (3rd Division, 4th Corps, Granger) apparently received orders from Grant to take the rifle pits at the foot of the Ridge (no orders to advance further were given) and Johnston (Brigadier General Richard W. Johnston 1st Division, 14th Corps, (Palmer) was not confused, and gives no indication that his goal was anything other than the top of Missionary Ridge. There seem to be almost as many variations of the final plan as there were commanders. Palmer, XIV corps commander, made no mention of the order in his battle report but both his division commanders believed their objective to be the crest. Of the eleven brigade commanders engaged in the assault only one stated positively that he was to halt at the foot of the Ridge and await orders. Two seemed to feel that to continue the advance or to halt was optional. Four stated that their commands were under orders from the division commander to continue to the crest of the Ridge. The remaining four considered the top of the Ridge to be their objective."
What the commanders and troops had drilled into them, up until that day, was that at some point they were to charge to the top of Missionary Ridge, join with Sherman and sweep the Rebels off the ridge. With the disparate understandings of their officers, the Union troops resorted to their prior training and charged to the top. There was no ‘miracle,’ they just obeyed orders.
I came to the conclusion that what had been written about the novel, including Dana's famous cable to Washington that the men of the Army of the Cumblerland had performed one of the most heroic charges in the history of military science, to be true. Grant never gave orders for the Army of the Cumberland to charge the ridge, only to take the final Confederate rifle pit at the base of the ridge. And Grant, to his credit, never claimed to have made such an order.
Grant did lie in his "Memoirs" that in the order to take the rifle pits:
"in this order authority was given for the troops to reform after taking the first line of rifle-pits prepatory to carrying the ridge."
U. S. Grant, "Memoirs" p. 445.
No one except who ever wrote the "Memoirs" ever saw or heard this option.
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
