Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
Just purchased (for $6.00 including shipping) and read:
"Two Great Rebel Armies: An Essay in Confederate Military History" by Richard M. McMurry
It deals with the differences between the ANV and AOT.
McMurry gets into the deferential and almost fawning treatment given to Lee and his crowd as opposed to treatment of Bragg, Johnston, Hood and Johnston again.
I really enjoyed it, particularly in view of it's relation to our current discussion.
Don
Don,
That's a nice book. I read it back when it first came out, and it shows a number of aspects that aren't normally talked about (such as the difference quality/quantity of trained junior officers due to VMI being available in the East, and the difference in artillery armament)
But one thing that always puzzles me is how the AoT, organized and trained by Braxton Bragg, became the weakest of the major armies in the artillery arm. Bragg was the most famous artilleryman to come out of the war in Mexico, well known for his advocacy of artillery (particulary "flying artillery") and responsible for what is probably the most exquisite example of the use of horse artillery in all the Americas at the Battle of Buena Vista. How did the artillery arm in his command end up so ineffectual?
Surely Bragg could have done *something* to improve his artillery. Yet I have never heard or read of any particular effort or emphasis he made in that regard. With the commander a career artilleryman, that seems very strange to me.
But one thing that always puzzles me is how the AoT, organized and trained by Braxton Bragg, became the weakest of the major armies in the artillery arm. Bragg was the most famous artilleryman to come out of the war in Mexico,
Don: Second most famous!
well known for his advocacy of artillery (particulary "flying artillery") and responsible for what is probably the most exquisite example of the use of horse artillery in all the Americas at the Battle of Buena Vista. How did the artillery arm in his command end up so ineffectual?
Surely Bragg could have done *something* to improve his artillery. Yet I have never heard or read of any particular effort or emphasis he made in that regard. With the commander a career artilleryman, that seems very strange to me.
There were a number of artillerymen who won fame in the Mexican War, the future Stonewall Jackson among them, but it is unlikely any won more acclaim or was more well-known in the United States than Braxton Bragg. The oft-quoted (and probably inaccurate) Zachary Taylor phrase: "A little more grape, Captain Bragg!" ensured it.
[Zachary Taylor was known for his use of profanity. No soldier who knew him seems to have believed he said anything like this in the middle of battle, particularly at the crisis of a near-disaster like Buena Vista. It did make great newspaper headlines back home, though.]
Following the war, as Bragg was being feted wherever he went in the South, he met and married the daughter of a weathy Louisiana plantation family. Amidst Army cutbacks, he started a feud with his co-hero from Buena Vista, Jefferson Davis, now Secretary of War. The feud centered on the dismounting of his battery and the futility of chasing Plains Indians with six-pounders. Duty on the frontier seemed too disagreeable for him to drag his wife there. Even though Davis appointed him to be a major in one of the Cavalry regiments, Bragg dragged his feet about reporting and finally resigned when pressed to show up.
Bragg had also been carrying on a letter-writing feud with the head of the Artillery in Washington since he was a fresh shavetail 2nd Lt. in Florida. He expanded this to include Winfield Scott, commanding general of the Army, shortly afterwards. He became involved in testifying to Congress in opposition to Scott's views as well. Either he was so good they put up with him, or his NC political connections were very strong.
Bragg then used his wife's money to start in the plantation business. His organization and discipline made a big success. He was powerfully connected in Louisiana and became Commissioner of Public Works 1859-1861.
He had won 3 brevets in the Mexican War (all under Taylor). In early 1861, he commanded one of the two most important Confederate posts at pensacola before the attack on Ft. Sumter was made.
...In early 1861, he commanded one of the two most important Confederate posts at pensacola before the attack on Ft. Sumter was made.
Regards,
Tim
While in Pensacola, Bragg made the acquaintance of Celistino Gonzales, oft noted as Gonzalez, of 1st FLA Inf. Gonzales was said to have political connections there as Mayor or relative to the Mayor. Gonzales for most of the rest of the War ended up on special assignments within the Army of Tennessee. He was KIA April 16, 1865 holding rank of Captain.
Does anyone happen to have, or know where/how to find additional info on this guy?
Seems to me that artillery in the AOT was to some extent limited in quantity for purpose of mobility. Large artillery batallions in Tennessee and Northern Alabama would have been severly limited in mobility. Even a Forrest division could only handle a few perhaps half dozen guns. Big bunches of hills in the path of movement and a subject to flood river system that made things darn tough, especially in winter such as 64-65. If the artillery in the Confederacy had been in greater numbers at Vickbsburg and Shiloh, perhaps different results. Corinth didn't have a cannon store in 1862, probably still doesn't.
Your analysis is most interesting and believable. Thanks!
I'm not sure why you two are so enamoured with Bragg, but it shows your education had been stunted. Maybe you've been influenced by the eastern theater. Try and read a bit about the Western Show.
MAJOR GENERAL GEORGE HENRY THOMAS was the best and most famous artilleryman in the civil war. His guns delivered Taylor's grape. His guns controled the center at Stones River and decimated Breckenridges division. His guns held the routes open for the retreat at Chickamauga, his guns under Brannon protected Shermans follies at Tunnel Hill, his guns held off Hood until Newton could get into position at Peachtree creek. His artillery made Shy's Hill a death trap at Nashville.
Going out on a limb here -- being far to lazy to verify. But I believe I read that D.H. Hill and G. Thomas served under Bragg in that Mexican dust-up. George was likely calm, but Daniel Harvey had the same disputatious temperment as Braxton. Kind of wonder why they didn't kill each other.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Going out on a limb here -- being far to lazy to verify. But I believe I read that D.H. Hill and G. Thomas served under Bragg in that Mexican dust-up. George was likely calm, but Daniel Harvey had the same disputatious temperment as Braxton. Kind of wonder why they didn't kill each other.
Ole
Dunno about DDH anf GHT, but I recall that when George was ordered to move his gun he loaded up a final shot, fired and ran like hell.
Seems to me that artillery in the AOT was to some extent limited in quantity for purpose of mobility. Large artillery batallions in Tennessee and Northern Alabama would have been severly limited in mobility. Even a Forrest division could only handle a few perhaps half dozen guns. Big bunches of hills in the path of movement and a subject to flood river system that made things darn tough, especially in winter such as 64-65. If the artillery in the Confederacy had been in greater numbers at Vickbsburg and Shiloh, perhaps different results. Corinth didn't have a cannon store in 1862, probably still doesn't.
Your analysis is most interesting and believable. Thanks!
Forrest based much of his success on the use of artillery and the faithful Morton, his young artilleryman. In the Fall of 1864, Forrest had a 16-gun, 4 battery artillery battalion. (Granted, the demands of the service kept calling parts of this away, but Forrest constantly worked to get it assembled again.
When Forrest heads up into Middle Tennesse for the Johnsonville raid, Buford led the way. In addition to his own field guns, Buford had two 20-lber rifled Parrotts brought up from Mobile by rail to Corinth, then dragged forward over some of the worst roads in Tennessee. Buford used these guns (Morton's battery and Walton's manning the 20-lbers, at least) when he trapped and captured the Mazeppa, the Anna , the Venus, the J. W. Cheeseman and the gunboat Undine. Chalmers arrived during all that, adding the rest of Hudson's (Walton's) battery and Rice's battery.
At Johnsonville on the fourth, four batteries were used: Rice's, Morton's, Thrall's, with Walton's deployed to keep the other Union gunboats trapped downriver, unable to assist. One of the reasons Forrest was so successful against RR's was that he usually put guns in position to take out the blockhouses the Union had built at bridges and important points. A few rounds through the walls with a 3" rifle convinced most defenders to give up quickly.
If you look at the AoT, you'll find they had a grab-bag of artillery, much of it outdated or too light. Yet at the same time, Lee had reduced his batteries from 6 to 4 guns because of the shortage of horses. Excess guns were stored in Richmond and other places. A diligent commander could have found a way to get some if he needed them. Bragg didn't.
The standard of training in Bragg's artillery also seems to have been indifferent. While I am sure there were good gunners and officers there, I can't recall any account of a particularly notable artillery action by Bragg's guns, the sort of thing that makes you say "Boy, those guys really knew their stuff!" Not one, which seems exceptional to me, because I can recall many exceptional accounts of the guns in the AoC under Rosecrans and Thomas, or of other Union gunners under Sherman in the Atlanta Campaign. The Union had no problem lugging all those big guns around, and making good use of them when they got them in place.
Bragg was certainly intelligent, brave, disciplined and loyal to the Cause. He doesn't seem to have been the sort of commander who thought quickly on his feet, "got things done", or made those arund him better. In fact, I think he made many worse by his presence.
If we were talking basketball, Bragg might be a Stephon Marbury instead of a Jason Kidd or a Michael Jordan. Marbury has lots of ability, but his teams can't seem to win and all seem to fall apart. I note that Marbury was traded for Kidd -- and the Nets started winning as soon as he got there.
I'm not sure why you two are so enamoured with Bragg, but it shows your education had been stunted. Maybe you've been influenced by the eastern theater. Try and read a bit about the Western Show.
I've read quite a lot about it over the decades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplez
MAJOR GENERAL GEORGE HENRY THOMAS was the best and most famous artilleryman in the civil war.
Thomas was good, but he was not thought of as an artilleryman during the Civil War -- and Bragg was MUCH more famous after the Mexican War than Thomas was, as I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplez
His guns delivered Taylor's grape.
Yes, Thomas was present as a subordinate to Captain Bragg. Bragg was the one who became famous as a result of that action (as well as the two earlier occasions for which Bragg was awarded brevets).
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplez
His guns controled the center at Stones River and decimated Breckenridges division.
Well, that's not so. Thomas was a Corps commander here, and a very good one. Mendenhall, the brilliant artillery commander of the AoC, was responsible for both of these actions, more so than Thomas in the first, and with Thomas not at all involved on the second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplez
His guns held the routes open for the retreat at Chickamauga
Mendenhall's guns had performed brilliantly on the first day at Chickamauga, and Mendenhall gave his life's blood trying to staunch the breakthrough on the second day. Thomas did well, very, very well at Chickamuaga. Thomas and his surviving artilleryists did indeed do much to save the army. But there is little brilliance in holding the only position you have; mainly grit and determination
This is not a shot at Thomas. He simply was not in direct command of the guns, and usually left the direction of them to the assigned commander, while giving correct instructions on what he wanted done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplez
his guns under Brannon protected Shermans follies at Tunnel Hill,
Well, yes, but there is little brilliant or noticeable about Thomas in it. Just guns that were positioned as they should have been doing their job. A nice professional job. But Sherman had 4 divisions, while Cleburne had maybe one-and-a-half. It wasn't a battle-saving effort by any means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplez
his guns held off Hood until Newton could get into position at Peachtree creek.
Well, yes, they did. However, you would probably find that Hooker did more to save the day, or the disco-ordinated Confederate command effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplez
His artillery made Shy's Hill a death trap at Nashville.
Shy's Hill was sure to be one, given the position. Only a man like Hood would try to hold a position open on both flanks against a superior force. While Thomas gave sure-handed leadership here and won his battle convincingly, there wasn't a lot of punch he had to worry about in the worn-down AoT.
Thomas, AFAIK, simply did what a commander should. He ordered his commanders to get things done and left the arrangements to them. Very good work with the guns, but I don't thing Thomas directed or planned the enfilade on Shy's Hill.
I wasn't praising him, other than acknowledging his superb performance at Buena Vista. Merely noting that after the Mexican War he was the most famous artilleryman in America, and how amazing it was that such a man has an army with such unremarkable artillery.
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