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  #91  
Old 03-05-2006, 02:30 AM
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I'm still trying to comprehend his target. Maybe he'll explain further.
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  #92  
Old 03-05-2006, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry_cockerham
I'm still trying to comprehend his target. Maybe he'll explain further.
Just pointing out that some were enlisted and on the rolls...not just "employees"...

...since they seem to have a hangup with that....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm
In short, an attempt in 2006 to enlist black men in the CS Army of 1863 is a no go.

Last edited by Battalion; 03-05-2006 at 07:52 PM.
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  #93  
Old 03-06-2006, 03:16 AM
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The following is an excerpt from the diary of Pvt. Calvin Livesay of the 63rd Virginia describing the retreat of the AOT from middle Tennessee in December, 1864. This is pg rated:

We were now falling back toward Florence again. General Forrest was waiting before attacking again till he knew the result of the battle at Nashville. We could hear the roar of the cannon all day and in the night a courier came telling us to get out for Hood was beaten at Nashville and for us to meet the main army at Duck River. When we arrived there most of the army was across. We crossed this by ford. General S.D. Lee was wounded in retreat. He was our corps commander. Hood was now in full retreat to Florence, Alabama. Major General [Carter L.] Stevenson was now in command of our corps. None of my old mess was with me except Preston Parks. What had become of the rest I did not know. The enemy followed us until Christmas Day. This was the last fight of the retreat. Negroes were put in front and charged our lines. What a slaughter of them! They were filled with liquor and then charged. At one place I saw a German charge over the breast works. He would not surrender and was shot down, drunk as a bear. They were hired substitutes for the North. General Forrest was doing much fighting, having his cavalry dismount and fight as infantry. I saw a number of mules mired and shot.
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  #94  
Old 03-06-2006, 09:48 AM
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Default Why are we interested in black CW solders?

We have discussed this for over 10 pages and 100 replies. So the myth that no one cares about the black Civil War solder, north and south, or that this is of little interest to others is incorrect.

First we have to separate the agenda groups (neo-confederates etc.) from those who are trying to educate us with the fact that black solders fought on both sides. Of course the union solders greatly outnumbered the Confederate black solders. Claims of 65000 are probably right if you take those numbers and divide them with servants, cooks teamsters and the remainder being solders.

Some think that a Black Confederate could not have possibly existed. After all the way was about slavery…right? Or were there other factors to be considered? It does not pass the “Common Sense” test. But of course 80 years after slavery and a war we fought to stop it, we would never have incarcerate a body of people simply because they looked different from us or their ancestry was not of European decent. But we did. Remember the Japanese interment camps?

There is just too much evidence to state that no blacks willingly severed the Confederacy. The problem for me is that I don’t care if he was Union or Confederate. Because his numbers were small, does not mean that he receives no respect. We cannot read thier minds as to why a black would serve the Confederacy. The point being is that some did.
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  #95  
Old 03-06-2006, 11:59 AM
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Well stated, Sir John. My only point, which agrees with you, is that soldiers should be remembered as soldiers, whatever their pedigree.
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  #96  
Old 03-07-2006, 11:10 AM
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Default Black Confedertates

I did find this interesting information from the State of North Carolina;

North Carolina Department of Cultural Resources Release: Immediately Date: February 26, 2002 Contact: Fay Mitchell Henderson

BLACK CONFEDERATES IN THE STATE ARCHIVES
RALEIGH – The North Carolina State Archives hold a number of surprises, not the least of which are records of blacks in North Carolina who served the Confederate Army during the Civil War. “Many people don’t realize that blacks served in the Confederate Army, and that some actually fought,”
says Earl Ijames, archivist for the Office of Archives and History in the N.C. Department of Cultural Resources. Ijames, who has researched black Confederate soldiers in North Carolina for more than a decade, said
both slaves and free blacks worked or fought for the Confederate cause. But, he said, it’s often difficult to determine their exact activities because the social climate of the times did not value or recognize the contributions of blacks.

No one knows how many blacks served the Confederate Army. It is known that some slaves accompanied their masters into battle, but only as personal servants. Other slaves, sent by their masters, mainly worked for the Confederacy to build forts or to transport materials, supplies or corpses. Some free blacks enlisted and actually fought, while other free blacks worked in construction for the Confederate Army. Official military service records of black soldier’s activities have not been found in the state archives. But there are records in the archives that provide some names of black Confederate soldiers, but few details of their service. No accounts exist of battles or valor, hardship or retreat, just the notation “Negro” beside a name. nofficial records are sketchy, if they survived the Civil War, Reconstruction and Jim Crow eras. mong the records in North Carolina’s archives that document African Americans’ service are
newspaper enrollment notices that give times for free Negroes to enlist in the Confederate Army, orrespondence, Confederate pension applications, and depositions. Some military records note that slaves elped to construct forts or do other work at military facilities. Other documentation can be found in the “North arolina Troops, 1861-1865,” a 15-volume set of reference books that chronicles Confederate servicemen and ncludes the names of black soldiers.

In some instances, officials even denied the existence of black Confederate soldiers. For instance, Sarah enable, widow of John W. Venable, applied for a widow’s pension. Venable is listed in the “North Carolina toops, 1861-1865,” as a member of Company H, 21st Regiment N.C. Troops. The roster shows that he was "egro, enlisted June 5, 1861. No further records.” However, John Sawyer, a white Confederate veteran who served with Venable, submitted a deposition as part of Sarah’s application stating that he knew John Venable, and that Venable had “made a good soldier.” Yet the claim was disallowed with the notation, “No law for this.” Another pension application came from an attorney in Spring Hope in 1924, on behalf of John Pulley. Pulley had served in Company B under Capt. A. D. Crudup, who was deceased. State Auditor Baxter Durham denied the claim, saying that the Confederacy had no Negro troops.

But some applications from blacks were approved, such as one from Billie Burrell, who said he was sent by his master from Granville County to Fort Fisher, Fort Caswell and Baldhead Island. He may have helped
with fort construction and maintenance of the facilities and equipment, Ijames said. Burrell didn’t claim to be in the Confederate Army, leading Ijames to speculate that Burrell’s application was approved because he didn’t claim to be a soldier. In July 1939, Burrell received his pension approval; he was more than 90 years old at the time. Depositions and correspondence record devoted service by slaves to their masters on the battlefield, usually by providing food and personal care. There are accounts of slaves who might have escaped bondage in the theater of war, but chose to remain and serve, sometimes even after the death of their master. A particularly poignant example of this was written about the service of the slave George Mills to his master, Walter Bryson. It recounts how George provided bodily comfort and went through several battles with
his master. But the greatest service came when Walter was killed in the Battle of Antietam, Md. George recovered the body, then made the long trip home to Hendersonville, N.C., so that his master would not be
buried in a ditch with the 24,000 Union and Confederate soldiers who died in battle that day.

Slaves often did whatever needed doing. Ijames shares the story of some slaves who got an unusual assignment at the city of Fayetteville’s armory. In a report to Gov. Henry Clark, Fayetteville Mayor Archibal McLean named 27 slaves whose tasks included “police duties in the square, and rear grounds, hauling bricks for the repair of roads, hauling wood for the engine, attending the carpenters, cleaning old flint muskets, packing
arms, etc. etc.” “Many people ask why free blacks would join the Confederate Army,” Ijames observed. “There could be many reasons. Many free blacks were literate and property owners, so it could have been in their interest to be with the Confederates.”

Others factors Ijames sites are religion and loyalty among slaves, saying slaves and free blacks felt a sense of kinship to the land and families that may have made them loyal to the Confederacy. He also pointed out that slavery also had been practiced in the North, and that blacks in the North often found the racism just as real and unwelcoming. Ijames, who began searching his own roots years ago, learned of the black Confederate soldiers from a co-worker who was entering the North Carolina Confederate pension applications in an electronic database. He
began researching the topic then, and has continued. He also makes presentations to civic groups; in 2001, he was awarded the Jefferson Davis Medal by the United Daughters of the Confederacy for his research on black confederates.

“Negro, enlisted June 5, 1861. No further records.” However, John Sawyer, a white Confederate veteran who served with Venable, submitted a deposition as part of Sarah’s application stating that he knew John Venable, and that Venable had “made a good soldier.” Yet the claim was disallowed with the notation, “No law for this.”
Another pension application came from an attorney in Spring Hope in 1924, on behalf of John Pulley. Pulley had served in Company B under Capt. A. D. Crudup, who was deceased. State Auditor Baxter Durham
denied the claim, saying that the Confederacy had no Negro troops.
But some applications from blacks were approved, such as one from Billie Burrell, who said he was sent by his master from Granville County to Fort Fisher, Fort Caswell and Baldhead Island. He may have helped
with fort construction and maintenance of the facilities and equipment, Ijames said. Burrell didn’t claim to be in the Confederate Army, leading Ijames to speculate that Burrell’s application was approved because he didn’t claim to be a soldier. In July 1939, Burrell received his pension approval; he was more than 90 years old at the time.

Depositions and correspondence record devoted service by slaves to their masters on the battlefield, usually by providing food and personal care. There are accounts of slaves who might have escaped bondage in
the theater of war, but chose to remain and serve, sometimes even after the death of their master. A particularly poignant example of this was written about the service of the slave George Mills to his
master, Walter Bryson. It recounts how George provided bodily comfort and went through several battles with his master. But the greatest service came when Walter was killed in the Battle of Antietam, Md. George
recovered the body, then made the long trip home to Hendersonville, N.C., so that his master would not be buried in a ditch with the 24,000 Union and Confederate soldiers who died in battle that day. Slaves often did whatever needed doing. Ijames shares the story of some slaves who got an unusual assignment at the city of Fayetteville’s armory. In a report to Gov. Henry Clark, Fayetteville Mayor Archibal McLean named 27 slaves whose tasks included “police duties in the square, and rear grounds, hauling bricks for the repair of roads, hauling wood for the engine, attending the carpenters, cleaning old flint muskets, packing
arms, etc. etc.” “Many people ask why free blacks would join the Confederate Army,” Ijames observed. “There could be many reasons. Many free blacks were literate and property owners, so it could have been in their interest to be with the Confederates.”

Others factors Ijames sites are religion and loyalty among slaves, saying slaves and free blacks felt a sense of kinship to the land and families that may have made them loyal to the Confederacy. He also pointed out that slavery also had been practiced in the North, and that blacks in the North often found the racism just as real and unwelcoming. Ijames, who began searching his own roots years ago, learned of the black Confederate soldiers from a co-worker who was entering the North Carolina Confederate pension applications in an electronic database. He
began researching the topic then, and has continued. He also makes presentations to civic groups; in 2001, he was awarded the Jefferson Davis Medal by the United Daughters of the Confederacy for his research on black confederates.

For information on black Confederates, call Earl Ijames at 919/733-3952.
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  #97  
Old 03-07-2006, 01:24 PM
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Pardon, Gentlemen, but as a wild aside in this thread: Who paid the pensions for Confederate military? State? US gov't?
Ole
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  #98  
Old 03-07-2006, 01:29 PM
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Default Who paid

The toll taken on the American populace by the Civil War is well-known. At the end of the war there were approximately 1,900,000 Union Army veterans on the federal rolls. There were only slightly fewer veterans on the Confederate side. Starting in around 1868 the southern states started issuing pensions to Confederate Veterans.

The federal government founded the National Home for Disabled Soldiers, and many states followed suit. Federal pensions and benefits were paid only to Union soldiers. Only in 1958 were Confederate veterans pardoned and pensions given to those few who were still living.

There had been some mention of Federal payments in the early 1900's but I don't know what happen to that.
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Last edited by Buffalo-Guard; 03-07-2006 at 02:57 PM.
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  #99  
Old 03-07-2006, 05:15 PM
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Dear John T.,
If there is a myth that no one cares about black soldiers in the CW, it was exploded a long time ago.

Question: You quote of figure of 65,000 blacks attached to the CS armies, when you "divide them" with teamsters, servants etc. Does this mean 65,000 including teamsters, laboreres, cooks, servants etc., or 65,000 after subtracting teamsters, cooks etc?
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  #100  
Old 03-07-2006, 05:26 PM
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Dear Mr. Tucker,

You state, "I don't care if they(blacks) were Union or Confederate." While that is true for you, unfortunately there are some people who blur the distinctions as to the roles blacks played in the Union and Confederate armies. They seek to distort or obscure the issue to serve a modern agenda: improving the reputation of the CSA by downplaying the centrality of slavery to CSA society and the war.

Blacks as soldiers was a shockingly new innovation in the war, that had wide reaching consequences in the North, and would have been a tremendous impact on South had it been implemented on a wide scale, had it been carried out

Individual black men may have fought in the CSA ranks, for varying lengths of time and for varying reasons. What motivated them is an interesting question, but IMO doesn't change the larger situation.
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