Chickamuga !!!

[Alabaman]

This is a nice post boys. If you don't mind I'll pull up a chair and join you in a remebrance to he Battle of Chicamauga. Its nice to find solace over here where the politics is scarce and we 'veterans' can talk about the war. Hope you don't mind, I'll be quiet and polite like. Hmmm..this looks like a nice stump; yes just right. Chicamauga, yes that is the topic..gosh my back hurts but here, thats better. Yessiree, just right and comfortable. This place in Symonds book, "Stonewall of the West", pg. 148..here I'll start...it looks like Sept., 1863 and "old Pats Boys" are ready. Not to worry dear Yank, so is Thomas and his boys; all is well.....

Long about 9:30 that morning, it was a late start for the battle to whup the Yanks & teach'em manners for invading our Southland and stirring up such a durned fuss and rackett. Yep things was mighty ripe, like a good watermelon in a neighbors patch, just a'waitin to be picked and gobbled-up. But wait: the pocke****ch says 9:30 and..
"the clear ring of Pat Cleburne' 'Forward! as the division advanced. (Old Pat rolled his 'r's' in his Irish accent, don't you know)
"Almost at once, his men encountered a fierce enemy fire from behind a line of concealed breastworks. Fderal Major General George Thomas, the Virginia native who was to earn his nickname as "the Rock of Chicamauga" this day, had concentrated his forces in a semicircular salient that by a cruel fate jutted out squarely across Cleburne's designated line of advance. Shooting fro behind a log breasrwork, the Federals had a 4-1 numerica advantage over the mileswide section of front assigned to cleburne's Divisio. Their fire was a perfect storm of lead, and Cleburne's men struggled forward as if facing a strong wind."

Now ponder this a bit, boys. Would you have wished to have been in one of Pat Cleburne's Regiment's, with all that lead a'flyin round? Yes and a no..hmm..and a 'if I was immortal'! Yep, thats how I look at it too. Lets pick'er up from here..

"The brigades of Polk and Wood's (thats where the fate of Rob Adams' very existance precariously balanced between Yankee lead and Pvt. Morgan Adams in Wood's/Lowrey's (to be Brigade) became seperated almost at once. Polk's men veered off to the right, forced to break into doubletime in their effort to maintain contact with Breckinridge. Cleburne went with them. The attack made little progress against the withering enemy fire. "Polk's brigade and the right of Wood's encountered the heaviest artillery fire I have ever experienced," Cleburne wrote in his official report. "I was now within short cannister range of a line of log breastworks and a hurricane of shot and shell swept the woods from the unseen enemy in my front." He (Cleburne of course) estimated that "five hundred men were killed and wounded by this fire in a few minutes." The attackers moved to within 175 yrds. of the Federal position, marked by the line of musket flashes, but they could go no further. Almost by instinct, they took cover, lying prone behind a small rise of ground."

500 men gone! In only a few minutes time. Now that is something to behold if you just think a little. Somewhere, all over the South, women were now widows and little babes would never see their Pap again. Mothers and fathers would get that dreaded news, your son was killed. Lord, mankind sure can be cruel wouldn't you say. Now Yank, it twas the same for you, or, shall I say would be soon. Johnny Reb wasn't sitting down and using their rifles as props. Yesiree, they would use'em And many a Northern Mother woud wail to beat the band. It was terrible for the both of us, Yank. And for J. Reb, hell on earth for the moment.

I have a copy of a leter from Maj. McGaughey of Lowrey's Brigade, Cleurne's Division (you may want to verify as the writing is hard to read) This letter gives the Majors view of Chicamauga. I located it at Auburn University's Library, by chance in 1996. I xeroxed it.

"Camp near Chattanooga, Oct. 2, 1863.

"Cleburne's Division (ours) was fought over three times and at sunset we were in front of the enemy. About 15 min. before dark were ordered forward to dislodge them from the position for which we had been fighting all day.Our skirmishers line were firing upon their line of battle and in 15 minutes from the time we started forward we were upon them & over their line of fortifications. Our right was literally mixed up with the enemy and many were so surprised that hey forgot to run. Some of them had only a chinked fence between our line & theirs and some of them were reaching through the fence of our men asking them not to kill them. We took 40 prisoners at this place & had just started forward when the 45th Ala. on our right <this is really where Rob Adams' fate balanced in my gggrandfathers survival> gave way and Maj. McGaughey intending to keepo a line with them gave th command to march in retreat insead of marching away in an orderly manner, Two companies_16th Ala.? in our right wing ran disgracefully from the field and amoung great confusion in the remainder of our regiment about 100 of our men (amoung them them remnants of the 45th Ala.) rallied and went forward when we again drive them before us without trouble and in half an hour from the time that we commenced firing had possession of the field. In this fight we lost about 60 men. They had only slight fortifications to protect them from small arms, had stuffed cracks in fences and built up rock piles behind trees, every man for himself.After the fighting ceased, we advanced about 40 yards and encamped in line of battle. An hour before daylight next morning we were up and under arms and remained in position until 9 o'clock whn we were again ordered forward. We marched 1/4 of a mile to the front when coming under a heavy fire of grape and cannister, we were ordered to lie down again. In a few minutes we were ordered forward and once again were ordered to lie down----? which afforded some little protection and in a hail of shell, grape & cannister. After resting half an hour were again ordered forward and we advanced about 200 yards, and came to a field about 200 yards across, the next 100 yards had a small clearing over it and a few rotten stumps and logs. The remaining 100 yards was an old field covered with broom straw <in Alabama we have this and call it broom sage fields due to the field laying fallow & the pH becoming high in the soil> We advanced through the bushes and were just emerging from the bushes and into the open field when the command charge was gven. Almost at the same momet the enemy opened a fire of small arms, shot, shell and cannister so well directed that it compelled our regiment to seek protection in the bushes. They were ordered to lie down, but having no protetion were killed by the dozens. You can probably realize the storm that we had to withdraw when you know how we were placed........

Sorry, but the letter ended here, to my great dismay.
That was one heckuva battle and was one hard earned victory by The CS Army of Tennessee of which my direct ancestor helped fight. War is a terrible thing and we should not gloat but should honor the memory of the men who payed the price. They were, in my humble opinion, OUR greatest Generation. Bth General Cleburne ad my grandfather were to die in other battlefields. Freedom has a price, you know! Never let anyone or any organization take away one shred of our history! These men never fled or shirked their duty and we should take gracefully their hands from long ago and follow their example. I hope this was worth you reading.
Yours Sincerely,
Rob Adams (Alabaman)

[r_moody]

Colonel Wilder was a man of immense forsight and vision, as he had the common sense to see that the Spencer Carbine was going to be the weapon of the future in 1861, and was a pivotal and deciding factor at the battle of Hoover's Gap, where his unit defeated a force of Confederates 3 times its size. Then, at Chicamuaga, though considerd by many a Federal defeat, his 72nd Indiana still kept it from being a complete rout, again due to the use of the Spencer. His men dug into their own pockets and purchased the Carbines at $35 each. A lot of money in 1861. They did the right thing because their lives were worth a couple of months pay. Its too bad the rest of the government couldn't see the tremendous advantage repeating rifles had over muzzle loaders. They said they wasted too much ammunition! How foolish can you be. Thousands of lives were wasted when 1 weapon could have turned the tide of the war much earlier.

[ole]

A slight addition, Mr. Moody. Wilder co-signed the notes for purchase of the Spencers. He had sought additional means of guaranteeing their promissary notes, even mortaging his property. Fortunately, co-signing the notes was sufficient.

I wonder how many he got stuck paying for -- in the end.
Ole

[richard]

One intersting bit on Col. Wilder. He became the Mayor of Chattanooga and was also deeply involved in the making of the Chickamaga Battlefield Park. Not to mention his efforts at developing the iron industry in upper east Tennessee.

Another intresting story about Wilder comes from Col. Eli Lilly. Lilly was the founder of the 18th Indiana Artillery Battery. He was with Wilder at Hoovers gap and Chattanooga as well as Chickamuga. After that battle, his battery was asigned to another command that chased Longstreet into upper east Tennessee. He stated that now that his battery was away from Wilder, he feared for his men. He was correct in his feeling. They lost more men between Sept.20th and April 9th than they had in all the action before.

[Alabaman]

Re: Wilder's Brigade

Colonel Wilder's Brigade of Mounted Inf. ;-) attacked primarily (I think?) the 28th Ala. & the right companies of the 34th Ala. regiments of Manigaut's brigade. The Confederate forces were driven back 1 mile, and, after a 're-group,' Manigault's men drove Wilder's Union Brigade back 1 mile, in like fashion.

I visited Chicamauga National Battlefield Park in 1999. Colonel Wilder's prominence, as being forementioned a Chicamauga Battlefield Commissioner, was very evident in the large "Wilder's Tower & Observatory." The tower wasn't "safe" at the time of my visit and I missed 'the' Grand spectacle.

As a Southerner, I am much more impressed by the action of Gen. Thomas's men in their last stand defense on Snodgrass Hill, which saved Old Rosey's Army in its (almost) entirity. The North, IMHO, owes Gen. Thomas (& men) much more than the sobriquet, "The Rock of Chicamauga." Gen. Thomas' men, not Wilder's Brigde, prevented a complete rout of Federal forces.

r--moody: In your reply, are you suggesting the Battle of Chicamauga was NOT a Confederate victory?

A Quote: by r--moody: "Then, at Chicamauga, though by many considered a Federal defeat..."

The Battle of Chicamauga, Georgia fought on September 19th & 20th, 1863 was VERY definitely a VICTORY by The CONFEDERATE ARMY of TENNESSEE. Possession of the field of battle was in Confederate hands on the evening of Sept. 20, 1863.
Please consider me as one of those who believe, and know for certain, the battle of Chicamauga was a FEDERAL defeat. This battle rivaled Gettysburg in intensity & casualties albeit shorter in duration, and The CS Army of Tennessee rightly deserves the title of VICTOR in all manner of the word.

Regards,
Rob Adams (Alabaman)

[r_moody]

As a Southerner myself (TN now living in CA) I have no dog in this pit. IMO the only gain was Rosecrans withdrawl. IMO Thomas could have held out if he had been supported and not been ordered to withdraw. Had Bragg advanced on Chattanooga a clear victory was possible. IMO the best that can be said is it was a draw. Nothing happened for the Confederacy but the loss of thousands of irreplacable lives and no territory gained. On the negative side it hastened Grant's entry into the contest. It was all down hill from there.

[johan_steele]

Chickamauga is the only battle I can think of in the War where one commanding General was driven off of the field before the battle was finished and the other sat in his tent aghast at his losses. I would certainly call it a CS victory though one that was not followed up.

The actions of both sides border on legend. Longstreet got lucky w/ a gap being opened in front of him... but that said I think he might well have still driven a breach into the Union lines. I have studied a lot of battles and it is this battle that prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the type of fighting in the west was wholly different than that of the East. There is some merit to the idea that the western Union men were generally harder to rout, but when routed they stayed routed. I think the same can be said for the Western Rebs and both sides decided early on that eartworks were the way to go. Add on that historians have tended to ignore the western theatre... otherwise they would never call Jacksons men Foot Cav... that moniker would be reserved for Iowa boys and those hard marching boys from Tenn.

As a side note Wilders men carried the Spencer Rifle. Wilder originally wanted Henry Rifles but they were not available in the numbers he needed and Spencers were. The Spencer was generally preferred to the Henry due to slightly superior range and considerably more potent stopping power... especially w/ the habit of carving an x on the tip of the bullet creating histories first hollow point rifle bullets.

I think the entire Tullahoma, Chickamauga, Chatanooga Campaign is one of the most fascinating studies of the War and IMHO should dwarf battles like Chanclorsville & Gettysburg in strategic importance. IMHO the war was decided in Southeast TN in the fall of 64.

[r_moody]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

I think the entire Tullahoma, Chickamauga, Chatanooga Campaign is one of the most fascinating studies of the War and IMHO should dwarf battles like Chanclorsville & Gettysburg in strategic importance. IMHO the war was decided in Southeast TN in the fall of 64.

No need to be humble about that statement! The Western Theater is much more interesting and strategicaly important. The role of the Navy, the river battles, the emergence of Grant, Thomas and Sherman. Longstreets victories and failures. Johnstons defensive lines from Dalton to Atlanta are a study in themselves. The West is far more interesting and complicated. Lastly the role of Logistics in the war are more evident in the west. IMO logistical failures, especially in the west, killed the South more than bullets ever did.

[Alabaman]

r-moody:
I didn't mean my reply to 'sound' grumpy or anything. ;-)
Its just that my ancestors in the Army of Tennessee need all the credit thaey can garnish, if you get my meaning. The AOT gained this victory despite Gen. Bragg's 'leadership' and apparent inability to even realize it could and indeed happened. :-)

Re: Thomas' defense:
I agree, to a degree that Thomas might have remained there, but THE big 'if' was reinforcement. The possible reinforcement had been nullified as per Old Pat's Boys & others, on the Confederate right-wing. The high-pressure applied to the Fed left by Hill, as per Cleburne/Polk, etc.. caused all Fed heads to turn much attention to their left. The "Gap" IMO was caused by Gen. Cleburne & company, (Hill/Polk) attacking ferociously. This is when the "Gap" opened, not so much by accident but as more likely by great fear, consternation by the great fuss kicking up on the Fed left. Upon this fear and not acting cooly and prudently, Wood (US) was ordered to fill a gap which didn't exist. But one did now! Now, IMO, at this point insert the "good luck" factor of Gen.Longstreet's point of attack focus, being right where that gap lay. I hope I made some sense here. I'm admittedly biased, and a big fan of the Western Boys and their fighting ability. I just as much, however, admire the Eastern Boys too! Please forgive me.

Why do you (anybody) think that so much focus/attention, then and now, was/is placed upon the Army of N. Va. vs. the Army of Tenn. or the Western Theatre per se? The same goes with Northern "Western" Armies, to some degree, IMO.
Most important "targets" of the war were located in the west. Had the AOT had great leadership in IMPORTANT positions of leadership (sorry) the war might have ended differently. Do I have a point??

Respectfully,
Rob Adams

[rivrrat]

My Great Great Uncle Sgt. Warren Hamilton 35th Ill. Vol Inf. was in the wrong place at the wrong time, with Heg's Brigade on the 19th when Longstreet's men hit. His body was never recovered.