Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
He was a fascinating man, self made and quite an increadible man. Over the years I've changed my own opinion of the man and agree w/ General Sherman in thinking that he was the most extroidinary general produced on either side. To my knowledge he had more black troops serving w/ him than any other CS command (around 40 if memory serves). He was not the enemy of the black man that he was later made out to be... He was ten times the man and General of many of his CS contemporaries. Wheeler didn't hold a candle to the man nor did Bragg.
Amen. When you push aside all of the modern-day political correctness and propaganda, his magnificent genius is readily apparent.
Regards,
John W.
__________________ Ancestors in CSA Army: 51st VA, 54th VA, 45th VA, 50th VA, 24th VA
No screening or recon, huh? Sorry, fellers, but you are wrong again.
What kind of a grade does one get for misquoting? Eric never said Forrest did no screening or recon. He said he had no talent for it and didn't do it well, except at Shiloh. And let's not forget his other criticism, that Forrest couldn't get along with his superiors, which has to be true. And Eric left out the fact that Forrest also refused to serve under Joe Wheeler. Forrest got along best with superiors such as S. D. Lee who deferred to Forrest and treated Forrest as though Forrest were the superior officer and they were the subordinate. Put Forrest in place of Turner Ashby and Stonewall Jackson would have had Forrest executed within the first year of the war.
Now, all of this is not to say I agree completely with what Eric had to say about Forrest, nor is it to say I don't think highly of Forrest. I happen to think very highly of Forrest as a warrior. But some of the criticisms are definitely justified. The ultimate test, though, is whether the cavalry commander can help the army commander win battles. Stuart and Hampton did that. Forrest, for all his successes in raids and in independent operations, failed to do that.
I think Gen. Bragg was the 'wrong' one in the altercation in 1863. In the Military, however, orders are to be obeyed by inferior officers; except in a pre-arranged 'pre-emptive' agreed upon relationhip such as Gen. Cleburne & command. This was not the case with Gen. B. Bragg, however, as the Western Theatre war had a 'teflon-coated' factor as opposed to sister Virginia. Gen. Forrest saw Bragg's incompetency and wanted no part of it. Many fine CS Infantry died uselessly, later, due to the inaction of Gen. Bragg. Now thats only my understanding. Gen. Forrest was a maveric; he wore no man's brand except his own. A truer America citizen soldier than Forrest, never existed...with exception of Col. John S. Mosby. Gen. Forrest's reputation regarding the redefined/refined art of killing (gulp, sorry) Yankees, destroying Union material of war and tying-up large numbers of his enemy, preceeded the clopping of his numerous personal horse herds, shod hoofbeats.
As far as comparing Turner Ashby to Forrest and thus with T.J. Jackson and Bragg:
This would never have happened, Cash. Gen. Jackson would have given the logical order and killed/captured Old Rosey's entire army. I see your point on insubordination; thats what you really meant, I think? With Gen. Bedford Forrest's reputation in seeking-out and killing (sorry, my Yank frends) Yankees, Gen. Thomas Jackson would have faced extreme hostility from his men had an execution, as you alluded to, occured. I realize that Gen. T.J. Jackson was a strict disciplinarian, West Point Grad and etc..etc..
Are you trying to 'play down' Western leaders or just "that Devil Forrest?" I'll agree to Gen. Forrest being basically Mounted Infantry, only when Col Wilder, U.S. is stated as 'only' a Union Cavalry leader, which he wasn't. Sorry.
As far as comparing Turner Ashby to Forrest and thus with T.J. Jackson and Bragg:
This would never have happened, Cash. Gen. Jackson would have given the logical order and killed/captured Old Rosey's entire army. I see your point on insubordination; thats what you really meant, I think? With Gen. Bedford Forrest's reputation in seeking-out and killing (sorry, my Yank frends) Yankees, Gen. Thomas Jackson would have faced extreme hostility from his men had an execution, as you alluded to, occured. I realize that Gen. T.J. Jackson was a strict disciplinarian, West Point Grad and etc..etc..
Forrest would have chafed under Jackson because Jackson demanded strict and prompt obedience to orders and would never explain his plans to his subordinates. Dick Ewell, when he was first assigned to Jackson, though he was insane. William W. Loring complained to the confederate Secretary of War about Jackson's seemingly incomprehensible orders in an incident that actually prompted Jackson's resignation. Forrest and Jackson would have been worse than A. P. Hill and Jackson. Jackson placed Hill under arrest even though it was unpopular with the troops. Jackson was never in a popularity contest. The one and only thing he wanted from his troops was unhesitating obedience to orders. Had Forrest been Jackson's cavalry chief in the Valley instead of Ashby, Forrest wouldn't have lasted a month before he would have been court-martialed and probably executed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabaman
Are you trying to 'play down' Western leaders or just "that Devil Forrest?"
Well, I said I admired Forrest as a warrior, so how can I be playing him down? I'm trying to view him realistically, realizing that like anyone else he had faults as well as virtues, and some of those faults negatively affected his effectiveness.
The only book I've read about the former proprietor of "Slaves R Us" was a very admiring biography written in the 20s or 30s.
This just sticks in my craw. Somebody with self professed lack of knowledge about a man is in no position to make ridiculous comments. Jokes are fine in a certain context. You really should read up on Forrest...you might be surprised what you read.
nbforrest, can you suggest any good books on the subject. That might be better received.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
"Did not help his commander win battles." What an assumption.
Look at the facts. From the time he was placed in regimental command until the invasion of Kentucky Forrest was doing the usual cavalry recon and screening. He came back to Middle Tennessee and raised a brigade which captured Murfreesboro, his first independent action. Then he went back to recon and screening until going on his first West Tennessee Raid, his second independent action. Then back to recon and screening until after Chickamauga (where he contributed to victory both on foot--yet he did that some--and in the saddle). From late 1863 and 1864 he is in West Tennessee and North Mississippi where he does recon and screening as well as acting as the major field officer for S.D. Lee. Then he does recon and screening for Hood into and out of Tennessee.
In all these cases of recon and screening, which make up the balance of his career, Forrest is contributing to the chances of success of the AoT. His time in independent command is much less that his time as cavalryman.
No, Forrest does not get along with Bragg or Wheeler. In the case of Bragg he is hardly alone! In the case of Wheeler, Forrest did not suffer fools gladly, but that does not make him a lesser commander. Indeed, when a man such as S. D. Lee recognized Forrest's ability the Wizard of the Saddle did extremely well. And, S. D. Lee and Forrest did not have a smooth relationship at all times neither did Forrest act as if he were the "superior." Forrest consistently obeyed orders even when he felt they wouldn't lead to success.
"Did not help his commander win battles." What an assumption.
Considering the history of the confederates in the west was almost constant retreating, with the exception of Bragg's invasion of Kentucky--a strategic failure, and the aftermath of Chickamauga, which turned into another failue, it looks like more than an assumption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RebProf
Look at the facts. From the time he was placed in regimental command until the invasion of Kentucky Forrest was doing the usual cavalry recon and screening.
Eric's point was that he didn't do it well. Note I have not said that I agreed with this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RebProf
No, Forrest does not get along with Bragg or Wheeler. In the case of Bragg he is hardly alone! In the case of Wheeler, Forrest did not suffer fools gladly, but that does not make him a lesser commander.
It makes him a troublesome subordinate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RebProf
Indeed, when a man such as S. D. Lee recognized Forrest's ability the Wizard of the Saddle did extremely well. And, S. D. Lee and Forrest did not have a smooth relationship at all times neither did Forrest act as if he were the "superior."
nbforrest, can you suggest any good books on the subject. That might be better received.
Sure. I like Wills the best, but Hurst is OK. Ashdown's book (although there are certainly parts I disagree with) is an interesting look at some of the myths surrounding Forrest. Wyeth's book, while dated, is still required reading on Forrest.
I don't think there has been a real definitive bio that has attempted to seperate fact from fiction. I'm sure it will be written some day...
I don't think there has been a real definitive bio that has attempted to seperate fact from fiction. I'm sure it will be written some day...
Respectfully
I know of two people who are putting together bio's on Forrest. I don't know if the final work will be in book form or not. That answer will be decided by a publisher. Both authors are cavalry specialists and experts on the western theater. The works are due for examination next year. It should be interesting and, as always, controversial.
Rick
__________________ "We made a great mistake in the beginning of our struggle.... We appointed all our worst generals to command our armies, and all our best generals to edit the newspapers"
- Robert E. Lee
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