Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
I wasn't suggesting that breech-loading Carbines were responsible for the faster firepower capability and subsequent higher U.S. casualties; but that Gen. Forrest's Troopers were possibly carrying many of them. RebProf provided us with an answer (thank You) to which battle these carbines were likely obtained. I read RebProf's reply on the lack of bayonets, and to Shane's? rebutal of the same, found at Fort Pillow by Archaeologist. Carbines to my knowledge, didn't have the capacity for bayonets; which was my humble point.
The two breach-loading carbines I mentioned viewing, I don't think, were Sharp's Models. I can't positively ID them, but I have a photo. However, I don't have the ability with my computer, to post photos. The weapons were photographed in 1972 or '73 during Wetumpka's Heritage Days Festival. The original parole, carbines and a Washington University B.S. Degree awarded for studies of English, signed by University President (Gen.) R.E. Lee were framed together in the Oak plaque. BTW; 1st Sgt. Commelin owned his horse and was allowed to keep it after the surrender.
Has anybody checked upon the possibility of Company or regimental Officers in Forrest's cav. Corps, privately purchasing breach-loaders for their men? Gen. Forrest outfitted either his Company or Regiment from the on-set of hostilities, and could have set a precedent to his subordinates.
These are just a few of the site I found while seaching the web. I will list any more of interest if I find them. I also intend to list some books on the subject after I search Amazon.com.
I have no opinion on this particular thread and look forward to the continuing debate to help me make up my own mind on the subject.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Like you, Larry, what I've read of Forrest is that he didn't think of blacks as anything less than human. They were slaves, and his inferiors, but they were not stupid beasts incapable of anything but simple labor.
There must have been more like him. Perhaps not enough.
Regards,
Ole
Here are two quotes to consider in relation to the above opinion of Forrest.
"I, as much as any man, am in favor of the white man dominating."
"When you are oppressed I will come to your relief."
The first quote is by Abraham Lincoln, the second by Bedford Forrest who was addressing a political meeting of African Americans in Memphis after the war.
Jack Hurst says "The reality is that over the length of his lifetime Nathan Bedford Forrest's racial attitudes probably developed more, and more in the direction of liberal enlightenment, than those of most other Ameriacns in the nation's history." Hurst, Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography, p. 385
The Forrest quote reads in full:
"When you are oppressed I will come to your relief. I will be wearing a white sheet with eye holes, and will probably burn down your house. But only if you attempt to vote. One more point, Ixnay on the political meetings in the future."
Here is what the man really said according to this web site. Scroll down to the section titled: Forrest's speech to the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association July 5, 1875:
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Neil, those were interesting sites. I get a little impatient with historians who study perceptions instead of realities, but I'd like to tackle a good, unbiased bio of Forrest.
My joke post was reacting to the previous comparsion of Lincoln and Forrest, with the slave dealer, slave owner and klansman somehow trumping the emancipator in race relations, which strikes me as a wilful misreading of history.
If Forrest changed after the war, or rather, his character moved in new directions, I'd be interested to learn about it.
Here are two quotes to consider in relation to the above opinion of Forrest.
"I, as much as any man, am in favor of the white man dominating."
"When you are oppressed I will come to your relief."
The first quote is by Abraham Lincoln, the second by Bedford Forrest who was addressing a political meeting of African Americans in Memphis after the war.
Jack Hurst says "The reality is that over the length of his lifetime Nathan Bedford Forrest's racial attitudes probably developed more, and more in the direction of liberal enlightenment, than those of most other Ameriacns in the nation's history." Hurst, Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography, p. 385
But if we're going to compare Lincoln's viewpoint with Forrest's, the way you did it gives a highly distorted and false view because you provide an out-of-context paraphrase of Lincoln in 1858 with Forrest in 1875.
In 1858, Lincoln said that if one race has to have the superior position, then as a normal white man he would prefer that his own race be the superior one. Note the conditional qualifier if one race has to have the superior position. Any claim that Forrest in 1875, or even most white Americans, would disagree with that just plainly is not true.
And let's take a look at Lincoln later in his life. On 11 Apr 1865, Lincoln said, "It is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers." [Collected Works, Vol 8, p. 403]
As to former KKK Grand Wizard Forrest, you bring up something he said in 1875 as if it were relevant to his viewpoint in 1864. Very clearly, that was not Forrest's view in 1864. Forrest in 1864 said black troops could not stand up against white confederate troops. Forrest in 1864 said blacks were property and when he captured them he would return them to slavery. Forrest in 1866 was quoted as saying, about the KKK, "That's a good thing; that's a ****ed good thing. We can use that to keep the [plural of the n-word] in their place." [Jack Hurst, Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography, p. 284]
Very clearly, the historical record contradicts the implication in your post.
Neil, those were interesting sites. I get a little impatient with historians who study perceptions instead of realities, but I'd like to tackle a good, unbiased bio of Forrest.
The best bio of Forrest available is Brian Steel Wills, A Battle From the Start: The Life of Nathan Bedford Forrest.
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