Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
They are included in the 329. The 2nd US Light had been at Fort Pillow since February. The "Major Bradford" in parentheses signifies that he is in overall command.
Possibly, but then you need to explain why the 40 men from the 2nd Lt. Art are NOT included in the "Present for Duty" number. Once again, you can not simply pick what makes it easy for you and avoid the parts that don't work out the way you want them to. When you do so, you automatically damage the credibility of your own claim. When you continue to do it after you are asked to explain it, you damage your own credibility even more.
So you have three problems here and you need to resolve them:
a) if the 40 men from 2nd Lt Art are included in the "Aggregate Present", and not in the "Present for Duty", why not?
b) if the 40 men from 2nd Lt Art are included in the "Present for Duty", that chops the men "Present for Duty" in the Bradford cavalry to 222 from 262. Yet elsewhere you claim this unit has a strength of 295. How do you resolve this?
Simply claiming what you will does not work. You need to resolve all the conflicts to be believed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by battalion
The 466 is Present and Absent...means 137 are AWOL, POW, in hospital, in arrest, &etc. (not at Fort Pillow).
Yes, I know how those numbers are generated. In this case, it means that on any given day there are more men in Ft. Pillow then you want to count.
To the best of my knowledge there were no POWs from Bradford's unit at this time. There may have been men reported sick (probably were) or in arrest -- they would almost certainly have been in Ft. Pillow. If they are AWOL, probably not; if on leave, probably not. But is known that Bradford's unit was actively recruiting and had many men coming and going, so his unit strength will be constantly varying, but likely to be going UP as he recruited. Your effort is to reduce the charges of massacre by reducing the percentage killed, you have said, and you are trying to do that by minimizing the number of men in the fort. Odds are there were more than you think.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Wyeth says there were 226 "who were march away with Bell's command to Mississippi". The men above are included in his number.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Ft. Pillow was assaulted at 4 PM or so and the fighting continued for some time. The Union landed burial parties the next day, were there about 6-8 hours, and the Confederates handed the seriously wounded over to them, so they would never have been counted on this list. The Confederates list is of POWs they took with them as they withdrew on the 13th, which is indicated in Wyeth's work just above the list.
You did notice the 20 or so men from other commands captured at Ft. Pillow, indicating a larger force there than you wish to acknowledge?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Ft. Pillow was assaulted at 4 PM or so and the fighting continued for some time. The Union landed burial parties the next day, were there about 6-8 hours, and the Confederates handed the seriously wounded over to them, so they would never have been counted on this list. The Confederates list is of POWs they took with them as they withdrew on the 13th, which is indicated in Wyeth's work just above the list.
Most of those mentioned in my post were held prisoner til the end of the war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
You did notice the 20 or so men from other commands captured at Ft. Pillow, indicating a larger force there than you wish to acknowledge?
Tim
I have no problem with the 20 extra men, civilian volunteers, &etc. The controversy is about the number of the 6th US.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Nathan Bedford Forrest from reaching higher command in the west?
He never did command the Confederate cavalry in Georgia, when Sherman was pushing towards Atlanta.
Did the consequences of Ft. Pillow prevent Nathan Bedford Forrest from reaching higher command in the west? He never did command the Confederate cavalry in Georgia, when Sherman was pushing towards Atlanta.
I think not. As a non West-Pointer, a commoner and a slave-trader, Forrest was from the beginning, not considered command material. His value was recognized and used, but he was never seriously considered as part of the management team. He was given ranks as rewards for his work, but never a real management position.
I'll agree that Ft. Pillow caused some little embarrassment to Richmond, but I don't think Forrest was ever seriously considered by the CnC as command material.
Just a thought.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I think not. As a non West-Pointer, a commoner and a slave-trader, Forrest was from the beginning, not considered command material. His value was recognized and used, but he was never seriously considered as part of the management team. He was given ranks as rewards for his work, but never a real management position.
I'll agree that Ft. Pillow caused some little embarrassment to Richmond, but I don't think Forrest was ever seriously considered by the CnC as command material.
Just a thought.
ole
This is generally true. The closest he came to an individual command was at Murfreesboro in Dec 1864 (superior to Bates) and during the following rear guard action Dec 18-28 (superior to E.C. Walthall.) As Ole stated he received rank 'rewards' after his service in a particular area such as the third star after the retreat. Forrest lacked all the requisite military discipline of the West Pointers. That fact saved his butt during a long three-year joust with death and the collective butts of the AOT after Nashville. Forrest served as an example of common sense and self-acquired military cunning, exhibited many times over.
__________________ Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
Cimprich and Mainfort used the actual strength reports compiled by the War Department that are in the National Archives. They didn't rely on after-the-fact memories.
Regards,
Cash
In their article- "The Fort Pillow Massacre: A Statistical Note" -do they list the names of the soldiers that were missing, killed, etc?
Also- do they have any explanation for the difference in their total for the 6th Heavy artillery (270) and the totals reported by Adjutant Harris (221) and Col. Jackson (212)?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Lincoln specifically states that he's fighting, initially, to preserve the Union. All of these things that you mention are part and parcel, benefits of Unionism. The secession itself makes the entire system shaky, not just the economy. People don't know if the money that they are holding is going to be backed from a government that will 'go out of business' - Buchanan privately thinks that he might be the last President of the United States.
So, really the blow of secession is specifically directed at the very foundation of the political system. If there is one lesson from history its that political instability breeds economic stability and really from the 19th century on, that really has been the critical difference between the successful development of the United States and the abortive/coup laden attempts to develop in Latin America.
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