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Tim,
Post 447 was very great, giving a excellent context to the event.
Thank you.
I was present once at a public event where a man was shot. It was an accident, and it occurred at a major re-enactment at Gettysburg (the 125th?). I was a spectator and so at a distance, watching the action at the engagement. Even though it happened right in front of me, I had no idea what had happened. I saw everything stop, the ambulance come out and the men milling around. Obviously someone was hurt. It might even have been the man I thought I saw fall, but maybe it was someone else. Not one of the other spectators around me knew what had happened. It was the following day before I knew someone had actually been shot and died.
If I and we could know so little, despite being there on a brilliantly clear day, studying the enactment intently, many watching with binoculars and a clear view, and none of us worrying that we might be in danger, how can we expect the witnesses of 1864 to do better?
They were in danger all the time, the soldiers and the civilians, the Union and the Confederate. Bullets were flying, men were dying and being maimed. Memories of such actions are always fragmented and often contradictory. Claims of this event and that event often turn out to be wrong in whole or in part. It would be rare for any account to be completely accurate.
That the attitude of Forrest and Chalmers and the rest of the Confederates might be something people of today do not agree with or understand is easy to say and easy to see. I am certain that some took a private vengenance here; that others might have taken a certain glee in punishing what they feared, slaves with weapons. That anger and the natural furor of combat rose to a level that was uncontrollable is likely, and that some continued the abuse and killing long past where they should have.
But we also have definite evidence of high Confederate officers trying to get men under control and the troops organized. Forrest tried to arrange a truce that afternoon, to get Union boats to land parties to aid in the aftermath, but the Union boats were afraid; this is not the action of a man trying to commit a massacre. The next morning, he did let burial parties ashore, and allowed the evacuation of many wounded; this is not the action of a man trying to hide a massacre. Every story of a part by Forrest in this is second hand or interpertive. I cannot see how he could reasonably be convicted of such charges in any reasonable court martial.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
John Cimprich and Robert C. Mainfort, Jr., “The Fort Pillow Massacre: A Statistical Note,” Journal of American History 76 (Dec. 1989): 836.
~
First of all-
Where did the extra men come from?
According to Adjutant Harris there were 262 at Fort Pillow (at last report received).
According to the commanding officers of the units there were 247 present at the time of the battle.
Are you always this incompetent in reporting figures?
You've messed it up completely.
Here are the actual numbers:
6th US Colored Heavy Artillery
Killed or missing: 167
Did from wounds: 10
Subtotal for dead: 177
Wounded or sick survivors: 25
Captured: 39
Escapd: 29
Subtotal for survivors: 93
Grand Total: 270
2nd US Colored Light Artillery
Killed or missing: 18
Died from wounds: 0
Subtotal for dead: 18
Wounded or sick survivors: 5
Captured: 12
Escaped: 0
Subtotal for survivors: 17
Grand total: 35
For both
Killed or missing: 185
Died from wounds: 10
Subtotal for dead: 195
Wounded or sick survivors: 30
Captured: 51
Escaped: 29
Subtotal for survivors: 110
Grand total: 305
Add this to the 277 from Bradford's Battalion and 3 for "Other White Staff" and the total number of soldiers is 585.
This is the table of Identified Union Troops. That is, those Union troops Cimprich and Maimfort positively identified as being present. 280 is the lowest estimate they have for Bradford's Battalion and Other White Staff. The highest estimate is 300. If you read the article they explain how they come up with the higher estimate.
So you are looking at a rough draft of a report written by Lt.Col. Tom J. Jackson 18 days before the battle, and he is ... where, exactly? Not in Ft. Pillow, anyway, so someplace else. Memphis, maybe? How long does it take him to get returns from the detachment in the fort, and how often do they send them? What was the last strength report he got?
Tim
The draft was dated 19 April and was written at Fort Pickering, in Memphis, Tenn.
I highly recommend Dr. Michael R. Bradley's NATHAN BEDFORD FORREST ESCORT AND STAFF recently published which contains the account of Capt. Charles Anderson of Forrest's staff who was perhaps the central figure in this episode.
Capt Anderson is quoted: "The charges against Gen. Forrest and his men of massacre and butchery at Ft. Pillow are outrageously unjust and unfounded. He did everything in his power to induce a surrender and avoid an assault. Thrice was a surrender demanded, and as often refused. There never was no surrender, therefore no massacre after surrender, as has been so erroneously and widely charged. I take occasion here to say that in my long service with Gen. Forrest, his kindness to the vanquished, the unarmed and unresisting foe, was a marked characteristic of the man. He believed and always said and dealt, that "war meant fight, and fight meant to kill" but never in all his career did a Federal soldier throw down his arms and surrender, that did not receive at once his consideration and protecton. He captured many thousand Federals, and there is not one living today who can truthfully say that he was ever insulted by Nathan Bedford Forrest (CN 3:322-26)
Gentlemen, that's from an officer who was there.
Who has reason to lie. That doesn't mean I believe he was lying, but we can't take what he says after-the-fact at face value.
What explanation does Cimprich have for the extra 50-60 men?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Who has reason to lie. That doesn't mean I believe he was lying, but we can't take what he says after-the-fact at face value.
Regards,
Cash
Most of what I posted was Anderson's opinion of Forrest in general (no pun) that coincides with the opinions of many other contemporaries both friend and foe. Yes, Anderson had himself in a place where his opinion would be questioned, no doubt about that. I believe him, but I wasn't there. Apparently enough other folks agreed with the notion that the blacks failed to surrender to have brought the issue to an eventual settlement. Yes, unfortunate. This is one of those issues that can only be resolved in an individual's mind based on the context and other facts known or believed about the participants.
By the way, your scholarship and attitude are greatly appreciated.
__________________ Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
You claimed you got it from Cimprich and Mainfort when you posted it. Suderow counts as "killed" those who died right away. 10 of the 40 wounded died of their wounds. The 51 captured are those who didn't escape.
195 black soldiers out of 305 died as a result of the battle. That's almost 64%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Not surprised you want to smear me Cash...
...very typical.
It's not a smear, since in your post you claimed you got it from Cimprich and Mainfort.
So in fact you were dishonestly concealing where you got it at the time.
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