Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
...either that...or Cimprich is trying to skew the numbers to support the massacre story.
What were the casualties of the 6th U.S. Heavy Artillery?
Or perhaps the reason you do so much accusing of others and so little presentation of your own work is ...?
If you think he is wrong, simply show your own numbers and the supporting evidence for them. Lay off on all these attempts to draw other people out so you can take potshots at things.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
That was a lot of work. Should I just give it to you and everyone on this board?
Tell you what...I'll make up the list and you can buy it on Ebay. What about 20 bucks each?
...
Give us all a break. You asked others to "give" you the same type of information. If you want to ask, you need to be prepared to give yourself. "What goes around, comes around."
BTW, the USCT 2nd Light Artillery also did not officially exist on April 12, 1864.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
BTW, the USCT 2nd Light Artillery also did not officially exist on April 12, 1864.
Tim
Lame. They were initially known as the 1st Tennessee Light Artillery but by the end of April the name was changed to 2nd U.S. Light Art.
All of the personnel records are in the 2nd U.S. Light.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Lame. They were initially known as the 1st Tennessee Light Artillery but by the end of April the name was changed to 2nd U.S. Light Art.
All of the personnel records are in the 2nd U.S. Light.
Well, no, the 2nd USCT Light Artillery was not exactly the same as the regiment you are thinking of here.
The section of a battery at Ft. Pillow you are thinking of came from the Memphis Light Battery (African Descent), which became Battery D in the reorganization of March 11, then Battery F on April 26. Other parts of the 2nd USCT Light Artillery came from Louisiana (Batteries C-D-E), Virginia (Battery B), South Carolina (Battery G), Arkansas (Battery H). Only Batteries A-F-I came from Tennessee. Batteries A and G-H-I did not exist at the time of Ft. Pillow, and none of the other batteries had the same designation in March they had at the end of April.
You may think it "lame", but you'll need to know it to check the records. One of the things it will tell you is the accuracy of certain statements. For example, any paperwork actually written at the time of Ft. Pillow "should" refer to these men as Battery D, not Battery F. Any official document that refers to them as Battery F was likely written two weeks or more after the battle.
Same sort of thing for the 6th Heavy Artillery, which became the 7th April 26, and was the 1st Alabama Siege Artillery (African Descent) before March 11. The 5th Heavy Artillery (which had earlier been the 2nd Mississippi Heavy Artillery) then became the 6th Heavy Artillery on April 26. I am sure you plan on keeping all that straight while you go through the pension records and making sure you don't mismatch any of the men with units -- but it is also possible the men writing the original records made mistakes with such a convoluted situation. Not "lame" at all, just normal bureaucratic nonsense you'll have to be careful not to trip over in your endeavor.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Well, no, the 2nd USCT Light Artillery was not exactly the same as the regiment you are thinking of here.
The section of a battery at Ft. Pillow you are thinking of came from the Memphis Light Battery (African Descent), which became Battery D in the reorganization of March 11, then Battery F on April 26. Other parts of the 2nd USCT Light Artillery came from Louisiana (Batteries C-D-E), Virginia (Battery B), South Carolina (Battery G), Arkansas (Battery H). Only Batteries A-F-I came from Tennessee. Batteries A and G-H-I did not exist at the time of Ft. Pillow, and none of the other batteries had the same designation in March they had at the end of April.
You may think it "lame", but you'll need to know it to check the records. One of the things it will tell you is the accuracy of certain statements. For example, any paperwork actually written at the time of Ft. Pillow "should" refer to these men as Battery D, not Battery F. Any official document that refers to them as Battery F was likely written two weeks or more after the battle.
The service files take from the rolls of the unit as it was variously named- "Lamberg's Battery" (1st TN), "Battery D," "Battery F" &etc. I have accounted for the number of 35 mentioned in Lamberg's report- KIA(6), MIA(19), prisoners(5), wounded(4), unwounded(1).
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Same sort of thing for the 6th Heavy Artillery, which became the 7th April 26, and was the 1st Alabama Siege Artillery (African Descent) before March 11. The 5th Heavy Artillery (which had earlier been the 2nd Mississippi Heavy Artillery) then became the 6th Heavy Artillery on April 26. I am sure you plan on keeping all that straight while you go through the pension records and making sure you don't mismatch any of the men with units -- but it is also possible the men writing the original records made mistakes with such a convoluted situation. Not "lame" at all, just normal bureaucratic nonsense you'll have to be careful not to trip over in your endeavor.
Tim
That one will be the most difficult...if I ever get around to it...
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Just a question, besides an investigation of Forrest were any other officers brought up on charges? If so what was the outcome of that? Secondly, why is it so hard to believe that some killing occurred that shouldn't have. I have always been surprised at the rare occurance of such actions when given the history of armed conflict. Did Forrest's me go overboard, it seems so. Does it make it more atrocias because the troops were black? Putting black troops against white southern troops who were fighting to maintain slavery was kinda like waving the red cape in front of the bull. I believe the black soldiers new it, and yet they accepted the risks. By the way Tim it is Charles Cotesworth Pinckney. Distant, Distant relative.
Just a question, besides an investigation of Forrest were any other officers brought up on charges? If so what was the outcome of that? Secondly, why is it so hard to believe that some killing occurred that shouldn't have. I have always been surprised at the rare occurance of such actions when given the history of armed conflict. Did Forrest's me go overboard, it seems so. Does it make it more atrocias because the troops were black? Putting black troops against white southern troops who were fighting to maintain slavery was kinda like waving the red cape in front of the bull. I believe the black soldiers new it, and yet they accepted the risks.
The Capt. Lamberg Battalion is quoting from (Lamberg wasn't there) was basing his report on what he could get from a private who did make it out. In Lamberg's first letter to his Colonel, he recounts this about what happened to that private after everything went to Hell in the fort, the Rebels pouring in from all sides: "He himself ran down to the creek, but within 2 feet of the same he was shot through both legs and fell down. He saw Lieutenant Hunter (commanding officer of the section of my battery), with several others, jump in the river, the rebels firing at them, but he does not know with what effect, for at the same moment he was taken by the rebels, who searched him, turning his pockets inside out, requesting him to give up his greenbacks, &c. He saw some rebels go in a tent where Sergeant Mills and Privates Lewis Ingraham, Peter Lake, and Anderson Smith, all of my battery, were lying on their beds wounded and kill them, shooting them through their heads and bodies, notwithstanding their cries for mercy. He then was forced to give up his jacket and put on a rebel coat, whereupon he was brought to a place about a mile in the rear of the fort and put under guard, together with, as he believes, 50 other prisoners, black and white. He saw among them Lieutenant Bischoff, Sixth U.S. Heavy Artillery(colored), and First Sergt. J. D. Fox, with 5 men of my battery. He, unable to move around on account of his wound, was tied up to a tree and lashed with a gun-sling. He saw the rebels kill several (to him unknown) colored soldiers after the surrender. Some of them were shot, others knocked on their heads with muskets until they died. Some few of the rebel officers and men objected to these cruelties and outrages, but could not prevent it. He says he saw several wounded, but does not know more than one of my men killed during the fight."
The white Union troops here were locals, many from that county, and they'd been riding about waving what is sometimes described as a "Black Flag" for several weeks taking their revenge. Local civilians had appealed to Forrest, and some of the men in the Confederate force were also from that county. Both sides had whiskey, and the assault went in after 4 PM while the fighting started early in the day. There are accounts of men -- white men -- called out of the huddled mass of Union men by name at the end, and then shot. Ugly stuff, but not very surprising in the circumstances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PINCKNEYUSMCRET
By the way Tim it is Charles Cotesworth Pinckney. Distant, Distant relative.
Thanks, I'll fix it. Interesting guy, very important in US history.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
I believe the blacks were misdirected or misunderstood the truce flag at the time? Or at least there was a Confederate argument to that point. They didn't lay down arms, perhaps. The black - white card was played in the press at the time. It got nasty. Some of the details perhaps true, others perhaps not. Sherman stated before Forrest's review that he was going to try Forrest and hang Forrest. That didn't happen. From that a conclusion can be drawn that 1. Forrest could have been acting as he should 2. He was lying and they couldn't prove it or 3. any combination of the two. We'll never know for absolute sure. Based on my years of studying Forrest and his actions in many many documented situations, I sincerely doubt he would have massacred anyone. It wasn't his nature. Getting mad at a foe and trying to kill him face to face or hand to hand or shooting a soldier for a display of discipline at a crutial moment, that happened. In today's world the courts martial would have had a field day with him. Not so in 1861-65.
__________________ Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
John Cimprich and Robert C. Mainfort, Jr., “The Fort Pillow Massacre: A Statistical Note,” Journal of American History 76 (Dec. 1989): 836.
~
First of all-
Where did the extra men come from?
According to Adjutant Harris there were 262 at Fort Pillow (at last report received).
According to the commanding officers of the units there were 247 present at the time of the battle.
Major Booth was dead. Major Bradford was dead. The Confederates occupied the place and burned everything they didn't take away with them. How close to the actual day of battle on April 12 are the strength reports you are looking at?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Major Booth was dead. Major Bradford was dead. The Confederates occupied the place and burned everything they didn't take away with them. How close to the actual day of battle on April 12 are the strength reports you are looking at?
Tim
Report (Rough Draft) of Lt.Col. Tom J. Jackson, 6th U.S. Heavy Artillery (USCT)
"....March 25th 1864 the first battallion of my regiment received orders to proceed to Fort Pillow and garrison said post[;] the battallion was under the command of Major L. F. Booth. After arriving at his destination the Major immediately proceeded to place the fort in a defensible position, by throwing up rifle pits working his command day and night to do so[;] the force stationed at the fort consisted of (204) enlisted men 6 U.S. about the same of the 13th Ten Cavalry and one section of Lamberg Battery...."
Civil War History, vol. 28:4 (December 1982), pp. 293-306.
~
Report...............Officers........Enlisted
Jackson, 6th US.......8..............204 (Rept. of Harris-213 enl.)
Lamberg, 2nd US......1................34 (Rept. of Harris-40 enl.)
The number could be as low as 247 or a high of 262.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
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