Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
What I gleaned from this, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that a massacre of black troops took place, but Forrest didn't order a massacre and in fact stopped the killing when he was aware of it. In one of the above accounts, Forrest in dramatically rushes between the sides waving his saber, and in others, he is on the wall observing Union gunboats, is informed, and orders it stopped.
There's a lot we don't know, and some accounts are conflicting. I don't think we can say that Forrest ordered a massacre. Some would say he didn't have to, that he knew what was going to happen. I wouldn't go that far. We have little hard evidence to go there. I spoke with Ed Bearss about this, and he said it's very suspicious that Forrest hung back for this attack, implying that Forrest knew what was coming and was giving himself plausible deniability. Personally I think that's mighty circumstantial and unconvincing.
Some accounts have Forrest trying to stop the killing, others have him saying it should continue. I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt there.
There's no doubt a massacre took place. Forrest's culpability is what is in doubt. I personally believe he only bears the responsibility as commander of the troops. I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me he wanted or ordered a massacre.
Shane, I believe Forrest's men were well known for carrying a sword and two revolvers. Bayonets would not have been common if ever used? Twelve shots potential in two revolvers. Brought on lots of close-range fighting, effective but a tad dangerous. Part of the necessity for 'first with the most'.
__________________ Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
Shane, I believe Forrest's men were well known for carrying a sword and two revolvers. Bayonets would not have been common if ever used? Twelve shots potential in two revolvers. Brought on lots of close-range fighting, effective but a tad dangerous. Part of the necessity for 'first with the most'.
The issue of bayonets has been fully addressed in the thread. We have at least one confederate source that confirms Forrest's men had bayonets.
Shane, I believe Forrest's men were well known for carrying a sword and two revolvers. Bayonets would not have been common if ever used? Twelve shots potential in two revolvers. Brought on lots of close-range fighting, effective but a tad dangerous. Part of the necessity for 'first with the most'.
Larry,
Most of these men are not "Forrest's men". Forrest has just come from Bragg's Army to take command, bringing very few men with him, and those not really the ones he wanted. These are "Chalmer's men", and I believe this is actually the first operation they were on with Forrest.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
"Our research indicates that of the 585 to 605 men present on April 12, 1864, between 277 and 297 Federals, 47-49 percent of the garrison, were killed or mortally wounded at Fort Pillow. Clearly the death rate was higher than that calculated in any previous study.
"More important, the tables also reveal a different casualty rate for the black and white units. Black troops suffered a casualty rate nearly double that of their white counterparts (64 percent compared to 31-34 percent)." [John Cimprich and Robert C. Mainfort, Jr., "The Fort Pillow Massacre: A Statistical Note," _The Journal of American History,_ Vol. 76, No., 3, Dec., 1989, p. 835]
Regards,
Cash
What does Cimprich say the casualties of the detachment of 2nd U.S Light Artillery were?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Report by “Memphis,” Atlanta Memphis Appeal, May 2, 1864
Jackson, Tenn., April 18, 1861
… The enemy announced their determination not to surrender, and were accordingly defiant and insolent in their demeanor. They ridiculed the idea of taking the fort, and intimated that the last man would die before surrendering. Gen. Forrest told them that in order to prevent the effusion of blood he had demanded the surrender, but now the consequences were upon their own heads. Then the work of slaughter and death commenced. The sight of negro soldiers stirred the bosoms of our soldiers with courageous madness. The moment our men were seen upon the wall, the foe, which a few minutes ago was so defiant and insolent, turned to cowards. Still they would not surrender. Those that were hid or protected still kept firing upon and killing our brave boys; but our troops still rushed upon them, all the time fighting and killing. The sight was terrific—the slaughter sickening. Wearied with the slow process of shooting with guns, our troops commenced with their repeaters, and every fire brought down a foe, and so close was the fight, that the dead would frequently fall upon the soldier that killed. Still the enemy would not or knew not how to surrender. The Federal flag, that hated emblem of tyranny was still proudly waving over the scene. Seeing that nothing could be gained by further fight the enemy rushed to the Coldwater for the purpose of swimming across; but the troops stationed here by Gen. Forrest opened upon them, and hundreds were killed in the water endeavoring to escape. Others rushed to the passage between the fort and the river for the purpose of passing down the river towards Memphis. But the troops stationed here by Gen. Forrest to guard this very contingency, opened fire upon them, and the enemy rushed upon a coal barge and endeavored to push it off; but a concentrated fire from our whole column, soon put an end to this experiment. Several hundred were shot in this boat and in Coldwater, while endeavoring to escape. The number in the water was so great, that they resembled a drove of hogs swimming across the stream. But not a man escaped in this way. The head above the water was a beautiful mark for the trusty rifle of our unerring marksmen. The Mississippi River was crimsoned with the red blood of the flying foe. Our soldiers grew sick and weary in the work of slaughter, and were glad when the work was done. General Forrest begged them to surrender, but he was told with an air of insulting defiance that he could not take the place, and that they asked for no quarter. Not the first sign of surrender was ever given. Gen. Forrest expected a surrender after entering the fort, and anxiously looked for it, as he witnessed the carnage; but no token was given.
This is supposed to help your case?
What is outside of the laws of warfare here?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
There's a lot we don't know, and some accounts are conflicting. I don't think we can say that Forrest ordered a massacre. Some would say he didn't have to, that he knew what was going to happen. I wouldn't go that far. We have little hard evidence to go there. I spoke with Ed Bearss about this, and he said it's very suspicious that Forrest hung back for this attack, implying that Forrest knew what was coming and was giving himself plausible deniability. Personally I think that's mighty circumstantial and unconvincing.
I heard Ed Bearss say much the same this Spring. Personally, I think the three horses Forrest had shot out from under him that afternoon (during his personal recon, before the truce, before the assault) might have something to do with it. He was about my size, but probably one heck of a lot tougher than I am; still, I doubt he would have been in much shape for leading charges on foot in the mud, climbing in and out of deep ditches and over walls, etc.
Plus, he was just over a major fight with Chalmers, where he had Chalmers relieved and Chalmers was then reinstated by higher authority. He may have just been laying back a little to let Chalmers run things through the chain of command, since these were Chalmers' men.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
What does Cimprich say the casualties of the detachment of 2nd U.S Light Artillery were?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
2nd US Colored Light Artillery:
18 dead [either at the massacre or as a result of wounds sustained in the massacre]
5 wounded or sick survivors
12 captured
[p. 836]
Just for the heck of it, let us note that this matches exactly the total strength reported by the officer Battalion was quoting from: ===== The detached section from my battery consisted of 1 commissioned officer and 34 enlisted men, and the casualties are the following, viz: Killed, enlisted men, 6; wounded, enlisted men, 3, (hospital in Cairo); wounded, enlisted men, 1 (hospital in Memphis); escaped, enlisted men, I (with the battery); prisoners, enlisted men, 5; total accounted for, 16. One commissioned officer (First Lieut. A.M. Hunter) and 18 enlisted men missing, with no information about their fate.
=====
Battalion says only 16 died; John Cimprich and Robert C. Mainfort, Jr say 18 died. Since Cimprich and Mainfort have been involved in more than one published work on this over a 25 year period, I suspect their research might be better than his, and Battalion has often shown that he is perfectly willing to cover up data that doesn't fit his ideas. But in any case, this is a minor difference involving a small sample of the entire force: only some 6% of the defenders.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Shane, I believe Forrest's men were well known for carrying a sword and two revolvers. Bayonets would not have been common if ever used? Twelve shots potential in two revolvers. Brought on lots of close-range fighting, effective but a tad dangerous. Part of the necessity for 'first with the most'.
The CS was chronically short of revolvers, even as late as 64. The idea of men w/ 2 pistols & a sabre are not borne out by odnance returns.
A man w/ one pistol or a carbine or other longarm was the norm.
Forrest did a superb job of equipping his men; but it has been mentioned that Chalmers men were not his men for very long at that point.
Frankly his escort may have been the best equipped Cav in the CS army... and they earned the need for that gear.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
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