Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
I have no idea what your problem is with "historians", but your approach seems to be that they must be derided because they don't agree with the way you want it to be. Better to save that guff for after you prove your case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
You know...I bet a book that has "Massacre" in the title sells more than one with "Battle"
Sigh. It might, or it might not. Do you have something specific in mind? If so, name the book and show where the author is wrong. If you can't, just admit you are once again trying to insert a meaningless diversion to avoid answering a direct question, and to avoid being forthright about your own motives. What is it you are afraid of here?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Searching for the truth is exactly what I'm doing.
Clear the fog of wartime propaganda stories out of your mind.
If you were searching for the truth, you'd start without an agenda. You have indicated you have one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by battalion
Not trying to reduce or increase...just counting.
From your post #377 in this thread: "I believe if the survival rate of the USCT turns out to be in the 50%-60% range it would place the massacre story in very serious doubt."
Quote:
Originally Posted by battalion
If it turns out that most of the USCT survived the battle...will you and JS be able to take it?
Facts are facts. I don't think either he or I would have any difficulty with it.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
It is ironic that more than 30 pages are on this thread; that it winds down to arguments like they had it coming, there were no murders at all, why those black soldiers were just rounded up and returned to slavery where they belonged. It is a sad statement of modern Lost Cause "scholarship."
I have spent my time studying the men who did the fighting and dieing; those on the sharp end of both sides of the fight. I have studiously avoided the lies and distortions of the Lost Cause staybehinders and their acolytes...
Well hey, you're a dandy...
I nominate you for the CivilWarTalk award for most false insinuations, strawman arguments, and sanctimonious blather.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
I nominate you for the CivilWarTalk award for most false insinuations, strawman arguments, and sanctimonious blather.
Dandy? Must be a Spelling error. I'm a daddy but no dandy. Never liked fancy parties and such.
False insinuations... to quote you from an earlier thread: "Prove it." I call a spade a spade; nothing false about that.
Strawman arguments? From you; that is so choice as to be amusing. Thank you Battalion, I always get a good laugh from your vitriolic antics.
If it is blather to call slavery an evil then so be it. Sanctamonious requires someone pretend to be pious... ummm I'm a lousy pretender and certainly not the most pious guy in the neighborhood.
But CWT has no such award. I think the closest thing to any kind of award would be the most banned; Suwanee and Wilbur.
Lets drop the childish insults and actually concentrate upon this thread.
Please prove that there were no murders at Ft Pillow. There is ample evidence, much of it CS, that murders happened. Massacre? Why don't you define a massacre... because what happened at Ft Pillow can be called one. My college Websters New World Dictionary, Modern Desk Edition circa 1979 defines it thus Massacre: the indiscriminate, merciless killing of human beings or animals. It was not the first or last time black soldiers were treated like animals in the Civil War.
Why don't you (why am I bothering to ask) IN YOUR OWN WORDS explain your thesis of why nothing untoward happened at Ft Pillow.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
General William T. Sherman and his committee decided that Forrest could not be held accountable for the deaths of the black soldiers at Ft. Pillow. Was there an odor about the place? Probably so. As Shane just wrote or implied, the attitude of whites toward blacks would win few gold stars. Someone disobayed orders or protocol. Someone should have interrupted that process. Plenty of blame to go around on that one.
__________________ Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
Strawman arguments? From you; that is so choice as to be amusing. Thank you Battalion, I always get a good laugh from your vitriolic antics....
Lets drop the childish insults and actually concentrate upon this thread.
Please prove that there were no murders at Ft Pillow. There is ample evidence, much of it CS, that murders happened.
Strawman argument.
I've never said there were "no murders at Ft. Pillow"...
...but I can't prove a negative.
It's up to you to show the "ample" evidence of murders.
Try the one about Delos Carson.
Quote:
Originally Posted by js
Massacre? Why don't you define a massacre... because what happened at Ft Pillow can be called one. My college Websters New World Dictionary, Modern Desk Edition circa 1979 defines it thus Massacre: the indiscriminate, merciless killing of human beings or animals.
Then Pickett's Charge, Cold Harbor, and several other battles can be called massacres.
My recent post disputes the number of USCT survivors at Ft. Pillow. One author estimated a 36% survival rate...that indeed looks like a massacre...but I have information that places it as high as 60%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by js
Why don't you (why am I bothering to ask) IN YOUR OWN WORDS explain your thesis of why nothing untoward happened at Ft Pillow.
Again, strawman argument.
Never said nothing "untoward" happened at Ft. Pillow.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
I've never said there were "no murders at Ft. Pillow"...
...but I can't prove a negative. Plenty of implication though...
It's up to you to show the "ample" evidence of murders.
Read
this
Thread.
Now 40 pages of numbers, quotes and evidence... that something untoward happened at Ft Pillow w/ several of the sources being CS. Along w/, I believe, a VERY complete list of authors and books.
Then Pickett's Charge, Cold Harbor, and several other battles can be called massacres. Yep.
My recent post disputes the number of USCT survivors at Ft. Pillow. One author estimated a 36% survival rate...that indeed looks like a massacre...but I have information that places it as high as 60%. Of coarse you do.
As Larry has just so politely put it; the place stank of incompetence and murder w/ plenty of blame to go around.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Now 40 pages of numbers, quotes and evidence... that something untoward happened at Ft Pillow w/ several of the sources being CS. Along w/, I believe, a VERY complete list of authors and books
So you cannot argue the case as you say-
"IN YOUR OWN WORDS"
COP-OUT
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
My recent post disputes the number of USCT survivors at Ft. Pillow. One author estimated a 36% survival rate...that indeed looks like a massacre...but I have information that places it as high as 60%.
Actually, if indeed you have any such information, you are strangely reluctant to post it. All you have done so far is to show that perhaps the number killed in one small unit totalling about 6% of all the men stationed there might have been slightly less than the average for the entire force. That sample is way too small to indicate anything meaningful about the entire force.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
So you cannot argue the case as you say- "IN YOUR OWN WORDS"
COP-OUT
Battalion,
I have been on this board for about one year or a little more. I have been online discussing the Civil War for about 15 years. I have never seen anyone online as reluctant as you are to expalin what you actually mean in your own words. I have repeatedly asked you to do so in thread after thread, in topic after topic, and have not once received a straight, complete answer from you in your own words, only constant evasions.
I have explicitly shown the half-truths, deliberate omissions, and constant attempts to mislead by using "..." to blank out the information real men included in their writings, as well as the deliberate posting of quotes out of context. Before you throw any darts at others, clean up your own house.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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