Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
Rob, while Forrest certainly had management skills, and had a tendency to follow rational orders, he would have been a waste as a commanding general of the Army of Tennessee. First off, there was little army left to command by the time he had enough of a track record to warrant his promotion. Forrest was not content to sit in the shade and propose a strategy. He was more likely to have a brief conference, mount some unfortunate horse (all but the last one) and lead his men into legend. Forrest apparently also lacked many of the 'social' skills that officers trained at West Pont supposedly possessed. Certainly he was not hung up over politics. While men of vast training and superior military skills in the traditional sense have monuments placed where or near where they fell, Forrest rode home after the war.
We agree upon Gen. P.R. Cleburne as the best CS western cmdr.! Common ground and common thought. Congrats to us.
The sacrafice of such a fine leader as Cleburne, by Gen. Hood at Franklin, Tenn. was a pure criminal act IMHO. I think Gen. Lee was glad to rid himself of Hood. But, this isn't the proper way for a commander such as Lee to do. Lee should have relegated Hood to a job shuffling paperwork in a back office in Richmond; wouldn't you agree?
Lee was glad to rid himself of Hood. But, this isn't the proper way for a commander such as Lee to do. Lee should have relegated Hood to a job shuffling paperwork in a back office in Richmond; wouldn't you agree?
I would blame Davis more than Lee for Hood becoming a lieutenant general but Lee did have Davis' ear.
"Hood is a bold fighter. I am not sure of what other qualities are necessary."
It seems as if Lee was telling Davis and Bragg what they wanted to hear instead of saying what he truly thought: Hood lacked prudence.
If you are listing the best generals of the west, it is quite easy to name 6 or 8 Union generals, but from the Confederate side, only two real names come forward, Forrest and Cleburne, why? The Union forces fielded more armies, smaller corps and therefore, more opportunity for the cream to rise. On the Confederate side, the Richmond government and therefore Jeff Davies, never initiated a program to develop a ‘winning team’ in the West, by weeding out the ‘deadwood’ and allowing the cream to rise to the top. The AOT brigade commanders (Lucius Polk, Goven, Granbury, Maney, Walthall, etc), were equal, if not superior to the counterparts in the ANV, but Davis’s unwillingness to remove the top level of the AOT never gave these shinning lights a chance. I am not saying that they were all capable of higher command, but they never got the chance. Bragg wanted to remove the ‘deadwood’ in 1862, referring to the incompetent Polk, possibly the over rated Hardee, he was not allowed to, and by 1863, Bragg could be counted as ‘deadwood’ as well. If the capable brigade and division commanders had been promoted in 1862, the AOT would have been much better placed to respond to the 1863-1864 campaigns, they never got the chance until too late, when the officer corp of the AOT seemed to drop like flies when Hood took over.
A damming example of this failure was in 1864, when two corp. commanders positions came available, and they were both taken up my men from outside the army (Hood and SD Lee), as no capable men could be found in the AOT for higher command positions, due to lack of experience.
But the most damming, is when Jeff Davis was looking for a commander to oversee the 1865 Carolina Campaign, he had to rely on the capable Joe Johnson. Davis’s options for army commanders in 1861 was the same list as in 1865(excluding deaths), after a bloody four year apprenticeship, not one capable commander was allowed to come through the ranks to challenge the 1861 men.
Lincoln may have changed his commanders too often , but Davis, did not change them enough.
Only one man made a real rise through the ranks, General AP Stewart, he gets my vote, always solid, performed creditably at very level, not flashy, not one to blow his own trumpet, and is always consistently overlooked.
A well-reasoned and written comment. Makes good sense to me.
Welcome aboard. Will watch for your next posts.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Another CS general who is worthy of his title was Bushrod Johnson. His performance at Chicamauga was outstanding. IIRC Gen. Johson is buried in an obscure grave with no mention of his service to the CS Army.
I totally agree that many capable CS general officers, suitable for higher command were not promoted by Pres. Davis. Like Private Sam Watkins said in 'Company Aytch;' the Confederate Command structure was very deficient in the 'who ranked whom' repetitious debate. Pres. Lincoln kept culling his losers until he found a competent general or two. President Davis never did. The Army of Tennessee was an afterthought as far as Davis was concerned, or so it seems?
Gen. Pat Cleburne is still my pick of the best in the west.
I totally agree that many capable CS general officers, suitable for higher command were not promoted by Pres. Davis. Like Private Sam Watkins said in 'Company Aytch;' the Confederate Command structure was very deficient in the 'who ranked whom' repetitious debate. Pres. Lincoln kept culling his losers until he found a competent general or two. President Davis never did. The Army of Tennessee was an afterthought as far as Davis was concerned, or so it seems?
Gen. Pat Cleburne is still my pick of the best in the west.
Alabaman
I'm with you Alabaman. Cleburne was the cream of the crop.
__________________ -
"It was a very peculiar time." - Franklin D. Cossitt
Ancestors in USA Army: 6th IA Inf, 11th IL Cav, 1st AL Cav; 122nd NY Inf; 6th MI Cav; 35th MA Inf; 100th IL Inf; 1st CO Inf/Cav; 22nd IN Inf
Ole: Thank you for your kind words. Alabaman: Nice to see a bit of thinking past Pat and Nathan. I think Cleburne just gets the nod over Forrest, based on the fact, that Cleburne did face and beat some of the Unions more capable commands, while Forrest, was pretty much allowed to do what he wanted without much opposition. Forrest would have proved himself against better commands, but Cleburne did. As for army command, neither was ever going to get that post, Jeff Davies liked West Pointers, neither were, Cleburne was foreign born, so was probably never considered (don’t you guys still have a law against foreigners being President) and Cleburne came up with that idea of arming slaves and putting them in the ranks, after that he never stood a chance of promotion above Division level. Army command should have gone to AP Stewart, sorry to be boring over this, but can’t praise him enough. He had every skill a commander needs.
How about Frank Cheatham as ‘best in the west’?
I have to say that I don’t think Davies thought of the AOT as an afterthought or even second rate to the ANV, he did visit several times and was active in campaign strategy, and did see a need for a supreme commander in the west (Johnston). I think that he did not know what to do with the army and its losing ways. The main problem with the AOT was the Bragg/Polk feud. His confidence in Bragg was unshakable as was it in Polk, but he seemed unable to see why two patriotic men could not get along for the sake of the cause. If he had dealt with that situation in 1862, the AOT would have been a far more effect unit.
I have to say that I don’t think Davies thought of the AOT as an afterthought or even second rate to the ANV, he did visit several times and was active in campaign strategy, and did see a need for a supreme commander in the west (Johnston). I think that he did not know what to do with the army and its losing ways. The main problem with the AOT was the Bragg/Polk feud. His confidence in Bragg was unshakable as was it in Polk, but he seemed unable to see why two patriotic men could not get along for the sake of the cause. If he had dealt with that situation in 1862, the AOT would have been a far more effect unit.
The idea of Davis' devotion to, or lack thereof, the western theater could fly in its own thread. Davis was blind in one eye (pun intended) and Richmond filled the other.
The contrast between the war leadership of Lincoln and Davis makes it easy to believe that there was some divine intervention going on.
Compliments,
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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