Civil War History - The South & Western TheatersCheck this forum for all South and Western Theater Questions. Included are the Western, Pacific, Trans-Mississippi, & Lower Seaboard and Gulf Approach Theaters.
Taylor certainly showed good strategic insights. How he lamented the escape of the ironclads from the ill-fated Red River expedition. He's quite right in that if those ships were captured, New Orleans could have been recaptured. While that wouldn't have won the war, it would have been a major blow in '64 and might even have cost Lincoln the election. Not only that, imagine if the 19th Army Corps wasn't saved? They were the folks who, along with the 6th Corps, saved Washington from Early.
yeah, Taylor was one of the Soth's best generals and he was definitely overlooked and underused. he should've been in command of an entire army. and i've never understood why the South never made any serious effort to recapture New Orleans. they had 4 years to try and they never did.
yeah, Taylor was one of the Soth's best generals and he was definitely overlooked and underused. he should've been in command of an entire army. and i've never understood why the South never made any serious effort to recapture New Orleans. they had 4 years to try and they never did.
In the Confederacy, some really GOOD, and possibly great, commanders were passed over and/or ignored. If you weren't JFD's buddy, you got the short end. Was Lincoln just lucky? Did he have a better stable to pick from? Or was Davis an incompetent CnC?
Was Lincoln's advantage that he had no idea who these people were? That he started his term with virtually no military exposure? That he just looked at the list and picked out those who won? Was Davis' disadvantage that he knew who these people were and picked out those he knew personally?
After Johnston was wounded at Seven Pines, Davis picked Lee (after AS Johnston's death at Shiloh) the second most senior officer available (The other, I think, Cooper, was too old for field command.). It was, perhaps, the best choice he ever made.
by no means did Lincoln have a better selection to pick from, the South had the best generals. Davis's biggest problem with his generals is that he let personal disagreements cloud his judgement as to their ability, such as Johnston, and he was too patient and forgiving with those generals who were his friends, such as Bragg. but if Davis was too slow to replace generals then Lincoln was much too quick. both Burnside and Hooker deserved more of a chance than they got. regardless of how poorly Burnside performed at Fredericksburg, you cannot judge whether or not someone is a good commander based on just one battle. and supposedly Lincoln replaced Hooker because he thought he was pursuing Lee into Pennsylvania too slowly. but did Meade pursue Lee any faster? no, not at all.
Brig. General P.R. Cleburne. His Division proved to be the best trained, hardest fighting & most feared Confederate Western Theatre leader. His Division saved the AOT several times; forced Thomas' withdrawal at Chicamauga, stopped Sherman cold at Mission Ridge, again at Ringgold, New Hope, stopped Union walk-in to Atlanta on 22 July, '64, handled Hardee's Corp satisfactorily, etc..to name a few! The North's best (Sherman) vs. Cleburne eqalled defeat of Sherman. General R.E. Lee himself complimented Cleburne highly. Lee had reservations on Hood, who gained command of the AOT.
Hardee, Taylor or Johnston come next in any order IMO.
Alabaman.
I inadertantly gave P.R. Cleburne the rank of Brigadier General; correction: should have read MAJOR General. Sorry for the error.
Added: I also feel Gen. Thomas, U.S. was the Northern (Western) Army's shining star. Wherever Thomas & his command stood, you could bet your water-proof haversack & its contents on a BIG fight.
Gen. McPherson would get my other vote as one of the North's best.
I would kindly suggest it best to break this "Best of the West" thread down into proper command structure; ie...A) Best West Cavalry Leader B) Best Infantry Leader, & etc.. Comparing Thomas or Cleburne (Infantry Cmdr.'s) to Forrest or Wilson (Cavalry Cmdr.'s) is difficult for me. Clebune, Thomas or Taylor followed direct orders. Cleburne carried the burden title's of "Foreign-born" and "being very shy" or "dosen't form/discuss Strategic Plans" during staff meetings. Duhhh...I wonder why!! Cleburne had the foresight to diagnose which disease the Southern Command was succombing; an inability to "change with the times". Cleburne went against the Southern Aristocracy in his famous proclamation & was forever doomed of loftier command, censored & (was) also sacraficed. Imagine Cleburne threating to kill Gen. Hood before Atlanta or Spring Hill as Forrest did to Bragg in Tennessee! (wish Forrest had done it personally!) Cleburne accounted for himself, in life, excellently and despite the prejudiced fatcat Southern Aristocracy. Forrest gained the "priveledge" of independence of command due to fear from his superiors, IMHO. Undoubtedly, Forrest was an outstanding & brave "self starter" leader. But...sprinkle into this "Forrest recipe" a great big double handfull of pure LUCK! Forrest was REAL lucky (with that temper) that another "tougher" Southerner with an equal temper didn't kill him! Not even speaking of that "one chance" Minie ball to his intestines compliments of his habit of riding at the forefront. All said, I would pick Forrest as the West's (both sides) best Cavaryman. Cleburne as best Infantry Leader. Respectfully, Alabaman.
Cleburne was good - there is no doubt, but there were others as good or better. Plus we have to remember that Cleburne was killed in battle at Franklin - thus forever immortalizing him.
He is almost held on a pedistal compared to other generals in the west today. It cannot be taken away form him - that he accomplished some great things - but he also had some GREAT brigade commanders as subordinates!
Fear-factor? I would say that between Forrest and Cleburne - Forrest was definitely more feared, everyone - even the rear Federal echelon knew who Forrest was. Cleburne never had a price on his head.
I've never read anywhere that Cleburne forced the Federal withdrawal from Chicamauga.
Now I do know about Cleburne's defense at Missionary Ridge - but be aware that orders of battle for that battle are mostly wrong. Cheatham's Division had been temporarily disbanded, and at TWO of his brigades were temporarily under his command. He didn't train them - Marse Frank did. He also left alot of them at fording sites on creeks and left them hanging out to dry until captured by the Feds without being relieved.
It was Stewart's defense at New Hope Church that defeated the Feds.
The 22nd of July was a flanking attack by the Confederate forces - and his men happened to be the ones that walked into an undefended part of the line not yet established - they got lucky and killed McPhearson.
At Jonesborough, he in no was satisfactorily handled corps command. His Corps - greatly outnumbered - was actually saved by Brig. Gen. John C. Carter and HIS quick reaction to a threatened flank.
Cleburne's Division was shattered at Jonesborough with the capture of nearly ALL of Govan's Brigade and the severe spanking that Granbury got. Lowery commanded the Div. there and was obviously out of his league as well.
Cleburne WAS great - there is no doubt he had ALOT of accomplishements, but he had reached the apex of his command ability at Division Command - as had Hood when he held that position.
Good leaders know their limitations and don't try to exceed them. Cleburne's tactical skills were no greater than any other good general's - in my humble opinion. He took no modernistic view of warfare on the tactical level as opposed to Forrest who unquestionably changed warfare - as did Sherman.
I'm sure you know of the altercation that left Cleburne in a weakened state for the rest of his life. He himself was shot in an argument in Helena before the war.
I'm not saying don't like Cleburne - because who couldn't like the guy - but objectively look at his performance and eccentricities - the guy was wierd - perhaps no more wierd than Forrest was MEAN.
They were both great, but great in different ways - they both made mistakes - and they both excelled far beyond expectations!
Gunny, I must say I've met my match and some! What you said was well recieved & well taken. Honestly, I didn't realize Forrest's abilities...well I did but not to the degree that you've explained. Being a "lay" student at the most on the Atlanta Campaign catches me at the disadvantage upon several, very interesting points concerning both Cleburne & Forrest.
I was aware of Ole Pats little confrontation in Arkansas & his dealings with Tom Hindman. Took a bullet that would have killed most! I've been shot in the thigh and Jaime it isn't fun!! Forrest must've had SOME constitution to be shot with an Enfield at point blank and lived! I guesstimate this caused Gen. Forrest's death due to Uremia (if I recall correctly). My wound layed me up for nearly six weeks & the bone was only "cleanly" fractured. I admit that after
researching I concede to you that Cleburne did hit his pinnacle as a Division Commander...and...he did (you're very right) have GREAT Brigadiers to command. The beauty of Cleburne's Division seems centered in the fact they "meshed together" into a coherent, well oiled machine. Cleburne's stint in the British Army may be the reason here??
And I concede that Cleburne didn't handle Hardee's Corp well on 28 July, '6. This was the reason that Gen. Hardee "kept Cleburne close to hand" & it would only naturally mean Hardee (himself) closed Pat's chances as a Corp Cmdr. due to Cleburne hitting his command pinnacle at Divisional level.
This is very interesting, I've been nicely paddled (in good humor) on Cleburne & Forrest but most important I'm being taught & I'm happy & I'm LEARNING! I've never discussed the WBTS to anyone of your level to my dismay. Everybody thought I was "weird" in wanting to learn so much. I repeal the "Forrest is Mean" statement (wheres that darn delete button when I need it...;-) & wish he had been given the AOT, Hardee as Corp Cmdr. & Cleburne as...well Cleburne's Division. The Feds sure wouldn't have liked this combo around May, 1864. Of course I know I have & realize my prejudices concerning Cleburne and there WERE other fine Generals in the AOT. I detest the notion of the ANV being better than the AOT. The ANV people who are stting this are suffering from MY disease...biased opinion! I need to shake off the blinders and learn more about the man (P.R.C.) and about N.B. Forrest. My father always said Forrest was good because he used "sound judgement" ie...summed up his Federal prey & had a "knack for a good & wise Southern game hunter". Dad was a State Game Warden & used the same type tactics when he was outnumbered by outlaw hunters in Ala.'s backwoods. You know, essentially he is right about Forrest. I don't recall reading of any Fed leaders with this innate ability. Maybe I'm wrong.
Jaime, when you spoke of Cleburne being "weird", I must say you have me at a disadvantage. I have no knowledge of this. Would you please explain? I'm very curious on this. I know of his shyness. Maybe he was a perfectionist??
I should have said (also) that Hill's Corp, with Cleburne's Div. (amoung others) applied great pressure to the Federal Left Flank at Chicamauga, which caused the Fed Right flank to send re-inforcements. Then came the "Gap" & Longstreet's breakthrough on the 20th. Cleburne's Div. I believe was "very instrumental" in "helping" to force the withdrawal of Thomas' men but not in actually forcing the withdrawal as I stated. Sorry about the mix-up. Also...I inheritently keep getting New Hope & Pickett's Mill crossed in my mind. It was Stewart at N.H. and Cleburne at P.M. Please excuse my error here too. I've never read of the split of Cheatham's Corps at Mission Ridge. Most interesting matter. I will hold to that while Lowrey & Govan held important positions & tied up Sherman's men, the rest of Cleburne kicked Sherman's butt! I get immense satisfaction over this...sorry!
Do you think Forrest would have served the AOT well as Commanding General? Please elaborate.
Thanks for the help in straightening out some of my misconceptions/errrs in this. I look forward to learning more & enjoyed this!! Yours Most Respectfully, Rob Adams (Alabaman).
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