Grants memoirs (shiloh)

[wt_jimbos]

I was on my break at work earlier thinking of a good topic for the western theater discussions (because the western theater is my favorite theater and the one i do most my reading on) and this thought came across my mind.

In Grants memoirs he mentions that shiloh was a defensive retreat onto a new line of defense that successfully held, and said the only disappointment of the day was Prentiss' capture despite his orders for a general retreat onto the new line. (remember my siting of Grants memoirs is from mind, and i'm posting from work while i should be working, so i don't have a copy on hand)
Yet in everything I have read its stated that he was ordered by grant to hold at all costs. And the defense of the hornets nest has been seen as the main saviour of the day. No book has really looked in depth into whether the order was to hold or fall back. (Unlike the topic of LEW Wallaces actions on the first day, which has been covered in several texts.)
The only thing i can think of is that Grant's visit and orders to hold the hornet's nest at all costs was actually earlier in the day, but the order to fall back to the new line of defense was later in the day but involved everyone, So why didn't Prentiss fall back with his troops and the ones he had taken command of?
What have read/hear about this?

(I was hesitant to post this, as being from Australia i only have half a dozen mates who are into the civil war, and thought it might have been a well resolved issue, and thats why it didn't need explaining in any of the texts i have read. So keep that in mind if in future I ask what might seem simple questions, as i have only read about 10 memoirs and about 15 other sorts of civil war books, but my collection is growing, the civil war is my favorite war, but i don't get enough time to read the hundreds of books id like to.)

James,
I am dreadfully sorry that I cannot answer your question. I am sure that there are members here more qualified than me to answer questions regarding Grant.
All I can think at this hour is it may be in the parts of the OR that are available online. My computer is a extremely vile creature or I'd look there for you.

http://moa.cit.cornell.edu/moa/brows...aphs/waro.html

And never, ever hesitate for one second to ask any question. Ask away. We love questions. Even the most seemingly simple of questions can start an avenue of research that can thrill and educate us all.

As Always
YMOS
tommy



(Message edited by aphillbilly on July 21, 2004)

[ole]

James Stallard.

Because Grant said he said it doesn't make it so. He successfully pulled back all troops to a defensive position on the north side of the battlefield but, in Prentiss's case, the order may have been too late.

Prentiss's troops (actually, he surrendered only a few of his own troops) were surrounded and couldn't reform in the rear. Whether Grant said this or that is a matter of speculation. If he had commanded retreat, it was not possible for those concentrated in the center under (in name only) Prentiss. It is understood that, initially, Grant wanted the position held because of the Confederate concentration on that point. It is possible that Grant sacrificed the center to make a last, successful position.

[ole]

James Stallard:

So great to have an Aussie on board. Is that politically correct? Anzac? Digger?

And this has absolutly nothing to do with the American Civil War. It is a fascinating topic, though. There are so many parallels in the Australian and the American divergence from England, that I feel, somewhere, there is a kinship.

Your colony, as well as mine, was established with rejects from the Kingdom. (Not my line, but close enough to the development.) You gained your independence in a more peaceful way than ours, but the frontier is the binder. Our dream is to visit. Unfortunately, the Missus needs about three snorts before she'll get on a plane.
Passing out is preferable.

So. Keep on posting.

Ole

[30th_il]

Hello James. I am always amazed as to the interest in the American Civil War from those in other countries and I am especially surprised to see you interest in the western theater over the overdone Lee and Gettysburg topics. I enjoy militaria of many ages (I am headed to Normandy in July); I think I need to be on the actual battlefields to fully appreciate the conflict. Have you ever been to the States? I suppose what I am getting at is, if you can't actually get to the battlefield(s) photographs are the next best thing and this sight is quite good.
http://www.civilwaralbum.com/shiloh/index.htm
Through the pics and panoramas it can give you a better feel for the conflict. My favorite battle is Champion Hill for what it is worth and when I read/study the event I like to go back to the pics from time to time to refresh my memory (I have been there three times). I will be going to Shiloh and Corinth in April and if there is any thing in particular that you would want me to photograph and send to you, please feel free to ask. Matt.

[larry_cockerham]

I understand there's a relatively new museum open in Corinth? (I answered you private message a few moments ago.) I'm curious to learn if there is any information left in Corinth concerning the brief stay of the Army of Tennessee in Jan 1865. I know it would be a bit difficult for the gentleman in Australia, but the sensation derived from entering the cemetery at Shiloh or walking to the edge of the channel where the Confederate troops were caught by Union gunboats is something that is difficult to describe. I don't believe in the supernatural (do I?), but it makes one wonder if part of these men are not still around. I have a cousin down in South Australia who knows more about 18 & 19th century western North Carolina than I do, much to my chagrin. His computer links seem more productive also. Welcome aboard from down under! I sense a tendency for this group to be very helpful. Best of luck to us all.

[wt_jimbos]

Hi guys sorry it has taken me so long to reply, my computer has died and I am using my girlfriends work ******.
Ole,
I don't take Grants word as gospel, one think I find in memoirs quite often is that people do place there spin on events, how ever what does interest me is what made him place this in his memoirs, and if anyone has contested or studied the event in response to the statement and if they have been able to shed light on the topic. (one possibility I thought of was whether a courier was unable to reach Prentiss, or If Prentiss had enough command control at the time to co-ordinate a withdrawal.)

Digger is definitely a compliment, and can be used as word of comradeship, and represents general Australian grittiness, Anzac (Australian and New Zealand Army Corp) is different and a sacred word reserved for those who fought in the first and second world war.

There are some interesting parallels between Australia and America, as Australia was colonised as to replace America as a place to send convicts after the Americas were lost. Australia funnily enough has not got it’s independence, as Australia voted against becoming a republic in a referendum several years ago, though techniquely it does as it makes all it’s own decisions.

Matt,
I have to say there aren't a lot of Australians that have a strong interest in the American civil war (I too am interested in military history of different periods, especially British military history), but I am meeting more and more people who have an interest in the civil war as I have joined the local Round Table, and a couple of re-enactment groups. Most people I run into are eastern theatre fans, but I have to say the Western theatre is much more interesting. I haven't been to the States before, I would like to go as I have a couple of friends in different states that said they would be happy to have me stay, one in North Carolina and another in Massachusetts. The bloke in NC would be well placed for my to use as step off to make a tour of different theatres.
Unfortunately I haven't been to many battlefields at all really, as it would give me a greater appreciation and understanding of how a battle unfolded.
Champion hill is definitely an excellent battle, the odds were close (about 32 vs 22 grand), yet the Union managed to triumph on the offensive over difficult terrain. Also one of the main characters was Mcpherson, who I really do admire. In ever account of memoirs of civil war figures that have had contact or know him say that he was a very warm and charismatic person. Also one thing I found interesting in Schofields memoirs is that both he and Mcpherson were not caught up in commission date and authority issues that plague Sherman's 1864 command. I also another character is Logan, how is definitely a gun, do you (or anyone else reading this post) know any good books on him, is the book his wife wrote on him any good? Have you any good shots of Champion Hill, to help me expand my understanding of the ground they fought on?

Larry,
I don't have anything on the AotT in Corinth in Jan 1865, except that they hoped to draw supplies from there except the railway line had been destroyed in a federal cavalry raid, which forced them to continue their march. And that the landscape still had old breastworks from past and was littered with graves, which was a depressing reminder of their losses.
I can imagine the eerie feeling of battle fields and war cemeteries, i think that many of the battles could have left mortified souls roaming battle fields, especially if you read of the ordeals of soldiers, especially at battles like Franklin were the fighting and terror of combat was so violent and full of carnage.
Cheers for the welcome Larry.

[30th_il]

Hello JT Limbo...good to hear from you again. The book on Shiloh written by Larry Daniels is very good and goes against this mysterious order supposedly given to prentiss from Grant theory. It is based upon the confusion created by the terrain and the difficulty of getting these orders to the commanders because of the difficult logistics. Good book...if you haven't read it it I highly recomend it. Also, Stacy Allen who is the historian at Shiloh has written to articles for Blue and Gray Magazine, Spring of "97 and Winter of "97 that give a very good account of the battle.
If you ever are able to visit the States I am sure you will find quite a number of us that would help you in your travels. I had help in my travels to Champion Hill by a Ole' Miss student working on his thesis which was about CH; he was able to get us into many areas of the battlefield not readily accessible by a local. Unfortunately, Sid Champion IV who still owns his ancetors land has absolutely no historical appreciation of the land except as it is for hunting an ATVs. Oh well. Anyways, here is a sight for you to peruse and it has excellent pictures and I especially like the "Locate on Map" feature which shows where and which direction the photo was taken.

http://www.civilwaralbum.com/vicksburg/ch_dawn5.htm

I wish there was a good biography of McPhereson. He was a very interesting general and yes, like you I have read that he was a warm charismatic person but I have also read the Grant and Sherman were suspect of his leadership capabilities and in the beginning of the war the held his 17th Corps in reserve or off to a flank where the action might be less. That all changed of course as the war went on and especially at Atlanta where the 17th Corps really took a beating.
Regarding Logan books, you should read, Blackjack by James Pickett Jones and History of the 31st Regt ILL Vols by Morris. Very good insights of Logan in both texts.

[ole]

TJ LIMBO:

And another in Illinois.
Ole