I am very confused.

[Mr King]

Hello everyone on this board.

I need help on some questions that I have about these scriptures:

Romans 13:1-3
"Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear of good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same."

So does this mean what the americans did by rebelling against the english authorities to establish america was wrong?

What about fighting against Nazi Germany and saved the Jews from extermination?

Now this is a very controversial issue here.

From what I've learned about America is that each state was to be governed independently but formed a government to unite together in harmony and peace; the United States. That the US government was never to be above power over the states. When the seven deep South states seceded from the Union, the rest of the South remained neutral, even though a lot were pro-Union.

But when Abraham Lincoln called for 75,000 volunteers to force the seceded states back to the Union, the other southern states were no longer able to remain neutral. They were to either submit to the federal authories and join them or face subjugation. They quickly went from pro-Union to pro-secession because they were not going to allow the federal authorities to tell them what to do nor were they going to invade against the deep South.

From what I've read there were great Christians in the South who fought for the Confederacy like Thomas Jackson and Robert E. Lee. They were probably some of the most devout Christians on earth but was fighting against the federal authorites of the United States wrong? They didn't fight against the government of their state; Virginia but went with it.

I've been reading a life biography on Thomas Jackson. Like I said, he was one of the most devout Christians on earth. He surrendered himself to God. He, I think, absorbed every scpriture in his heart, mind and soul. He helped blacks to read and write even though it was illegal. He helped and participated in a black Church and always payed at least a tithe to them. He wanted whites and blacks to be together. He always prayed and went to Church. He did not fear death in battle for he believed that God has fixed the time for his death and that he didn't concern himself with that. He felt safe in battle as if he was in bed asleep. So he fought against the invaders to protect the homes and firesides of his state and the government of the Confederacy.

I am very confused here. I am a southerner and I honor these southerners for fighting to defend the government of of their state, their families, homes and land. Was it right that they fought for the government of their state or was it wrong to fight against an invading government of the United States that was ruled by federal authority?

I need to pray to the Almighty God to answer these questions.

[unionblue]

Mr. King,

Yes, I would agree.

You are very confused.

And what are you going to do if you find out that God, is in fact, a Northerner?

I wish you well in your prayers.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[matthew mckeon]

It looks like you have three issues at hand:

a. The American Revolution

b. The Civil War

c. Resistance to Nazi Germany

And you have two authorities you're referencing.

a. Saint Paul

b. The US Constitution

And you make an assertion:

a. The Federal Government would not "above power than the states."

My response, for what's its worth:

The American Revolution was a political action by the colonies against the authority of the king of England. The revolutionaries in the Declaration of Independence said that the king had lost the right to govern them because of his tyrannical actions, destructive to their liberties, property and very lives. The Declaration lists dozens of the king's actions they consider tyrannical. Is it in accordance with Saint Paul's exhortation not to offend the authorities? Or Jesus saying "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God, what is God's?" Should the colonies knuckled under to British authorities as Saint Paul and Jesus suggest?

They obviously didn't think so. I agree.

b. Resistance to Nazi Germany. Since the Nazis were seeking to destroy the lives of the Jews, simple self defense, to protect their own lives and that of their neighbors and families would override Saint Paul's teachings. There was no way that the Jews could act that would stop the Nazis from murdering them. Did not Barak, Gideon, Moses, the Maccabees and others resist the oppressors of the Jews? While some of the virulent anti semiticism of the Nazis was built on Christian tradition, Hitler and his supporters did not reference the Bible, quite the opposite. As for the churchmen who choose to look the other way during the Nazi era, maybe intense study of St. Paul comforted them as their neighbors were dragged away.

c. The Civil War. Were the Southern secessionists following the teaching of St. Paul or Jesus when they seceded to protect the institution of slavery, and the privileged position of slaveowners? I don't think so, and I have never heard St. Paul cited by the secessionists.

d. did the Constitution allow for states to unilaterally withdraw from the Union? In other words, is your assertion about the relationship between the states and the federal government correct? Much argument has been made on this issue on this forum. When Kentucky decided to stay within the Union, did that make Kentuckians who fought for the Confederacy traitors to Kentucky? Did Virginians like George Thomas who fought for the Union traitors to the state of Virginia?

The resistance to the Nazis and the British crown were outside the law of the time. The question is: was illegal resistance justifiable? Everyone would say yes in the instance of the Nazis, and most people would say yes to the British crown, since Americans were legally held in an inferior position, and even that position was being eroded by the British. Only revolution could change that situation.

Since the secessionists justification(protect slavery) is so abhorrent to us now, its hard to feel much sympathy for them, unlike the Jews, or even the colonists. And to regard secession as an exercise divorced from its circumstances isn't right either.

[Mr King]

Originally Posted by unionblue

Mr. King,

And what are you going to do if you find out that God, is in fact, a Northerner?

I wish you well in your prayers.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

I disagree that God is a northerner. God is for those who believes in Him and reaches out to those to believe, love Him, follows His Commandments and puts them into action with faith. To believe in Him you have to believe in His Son Jesus who died on the Cross for our sins, ask for forgiveness and to repent. Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. To follow Jesus, we are to deny ourselves and take up the cross daily.

Thank you for your kind thought with my prayers. I should pray not only for myself but for both northerners and southerners, believers and enemies, all of us.

[Mr King]

matthew mckeon, you can't judge everybody in the South for fighting for slavery. Many, in not, most didn't own slaves. They fought to protect their families, homes and land. Many homes, towns even cities were destroyed by the federal army. Women both white and black were raped by federal soldiers. Many innocent civilians were killed by federal soldiers.

[matthew mckeon]

Dear Mr. King,
Was secession then justified by the crimes committed by federal troops?

Since secession occured before these crimes, it could hardly be a justification for secession.

If you're making a general statement that some good guys fought for the South, and some bad guys fought for the Union, that's true.

[M E Wolf]

Dear Mr. King;

I cannot improve much on what has been said here thus far however,
I am quite sure that God did not choose either side. Too many countries, too many kings, leaders, etc.; have used 'religion' as a power and also an excuse/justification for war and or war like activities.

I do not support putting God into some corner for 'victory' and or 'defeat.'
God gave the Ten Commandments; rather simple really--and humans for the most part can't even follow them in the basic form.

Bible and God's words can be manipulated into anything by clever 'spin' doctors and or church leaders.

I consider it making someone else and or God responsible, instead of ourselves (in general.).

There is good and evil enough to pass around on both sides of the rebellion. But, God wasn't loading the rifles and firing them; God wasn't loading the cannons and firing them; and God was not on a charger and leading the charge with the Cavalry. God wasn't pointing to the map to guide generals to battle. Nope--all human. I won't deny that people had faith in God on either side but; I refuse to believe God chose sides.

If I was to believe that, then if God is a 'winner' and 'all knowing' --he knew to pick the Union side as the winner; as it just happened to be they accepted the surrender of the Confederate Armies.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[Freddy]

I have a difficult time picturing God, if he actually exists, being on the side of the owners of nearly 4,000,000 enslaved African Americans. "Let my people go!", who said that?

[Will Posey]

I do not believe God took one side against the other in this conflict. Many of His people were involved, on both sides, and I believe God dealt individually with each as needed.

As for whether the American Revolution and the War Between the States were illegal wars, I would say yes to both. A revolution by definition is an illegal act, and both wars began as such. The difference between the two conflicts is that the 1776 revolters won on the battlefield, while the 1861 revolters did not.

As to whether those revolutionary actions violated God's admonition to submit to the authority over us, I would say that they did. However, God permitted the 1776 revolution to succeed, and he permitted the 1861 revolution to fail, irregardless of who on either side was a faithful believer.

Will

[diddyriddick]

I'm not a religious man, but it seems to me that you could find a passage in the bible to support just about any particular point of view that you wish.