Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I would commend Beowulf's sense of duty and honor. I do not know him personaly, but I sense a connection that extends beyond the confines of the Internet. Perhaps we are long lost brothers or some such. You do your country great credit sir. Thank you.
Allow me to re-direct this thread if you will gentlemen.
Let's talk about duty and honor again.
General John Pope, born 18 March 1822 at Louisville, Kentucky, graduated from the Military Academy in 1842. Fought gallantly at Monterey and Buena Vista during the war with Mexico. Commanded the Army of the Mississippi during the siege of Corinth, winning a promotion to Major General. He headed the newly formed Army of Virginia after the collapse of the Peninsular Campaign.
General Pope met with some difficulties during the Battle of Second Manassas. I wonder if you learned gentlemen would be so kind as to talk about this esteemed character for just a little bit. Let's talk about his performance of duty and the honor he brought to the United States government.
I confess, OldGreyWolf, my knowledge of the Old testament prophets is greater than my knowledge of the lesser Yankee generals of the Contest...
However, a cursory glance at the subject matter was not without its more curious points, to which I should like to draw all of your attentions, in the collective.
Pope versus Subordinate Porter. The Second Party versus the Northern Conservatives.
IMHO, all courts martial brought against subordinates should be open and shut cases, or else of such damaging quality that blame is universally recognized. Historically, only the Left continued, from what I have seen so far, to denounce Porter years later.
(Sort of like the Left today still goes after the Confederate battle flag like they don't have good sense!)
In this corner, friend of Abraham the First, and the balance of the Republican Liberal Bias, we give you... Pope! Arrogant, ambitious, and willing to blame others for any deficiencies... friend of the left wing press, and et cetera...
whose court martial trial of Porter was headed by no less a maggot than Black Dave Hunter, as the 'president' of the
'ruling body'...
And in this corner, Porter, whose Conservative connections to McClellan (him of the saddle fame) and other original United States Party Right Wingers, earned him the continued condemnation of the Lincoln Nation, even though Left Wing Sam Grant and his White Tecumseh were said to have somewhat come to his aid, thus losing them in the Left Wing party popularities (though not enough to seriously hurt either of them, nor to do the unfortunate Porter any real good...)
My take on Pope was that he was in over his head, going to use the soon to be popular Sam Grant styled attrition to cover for his incompetencies as general, and was unfortunate enough to have met Jackson and Longstreet instead of the 8,000 Spartans under a demoralized Lee-onidas at Appomattox...
That, and the fact that the yankee army, as a whole, was still trying to internalize what they were doing down here, in the firstplace, trying to run these people out of their own homes!
The case of the court martial, I shall have to review, but it looks like Porter has a good defense... I submit it was one of the factors in the removal of Pope (that and Porter's second cousin status to the first Admiral! Ahem...)
I'll have to study deeper, but this would be my take on it, at first blush...
I read this forum to learn about & discuss the politics of 1850-ish through April of 1865.
What one's current politics, prejudices, biases, or even religion are, I could care less.
Politics, I think, are like underwear. I have some, and they're important to me. I presume most people have some that matter to them too, but I really don't want to know. The simple fact is that the extremes are indistinguishable from each other. Was it thus in 1860? I don't know, but probably.
As to the honor question...
I don't think it's as out of style in some quarters as we'd expect. Again, I've known some superb officers who simply oozed it - first rate human beings. What I truly understand about the three concepts of this topic I owe largely to them, and fear it would be impossible to convey over a forum such as this.
Did the three concepts conspire to cause the war? No, I don't think so. .... more later, maybe, time for soup.
I read this forum to learn about & discuss the politics of 1850-ish through April of 1865.
What one's current politics, prejudices, biases, or even religion are, I could care less.
Politics, I think, are like underwear. I have some, and they're important to me. I presume most people have some that matter to them too, but I really don't want to know. The simple fact is that the extremes are indistinguishable from each other. Was it thus in 1860? I don't know, but probably.
As to the honor question...
I don't think it's as out of style in some quarters as we'd expect. Again, I've known some superb officers who simply oozed it - first rate human beings. What I truly understand about the three concepts of this topic I owe largely to them, and fear it would be impossible to convey over a forum such as this.
Did the three concepts conspire to cause the war? No, I don't think so. .... more later, maybe, time for soup.
I am trying to understand, now. You comment about 'current politics'. Because they didn't use certain words that we do, today, these ideas did not exist in those times?
Balance excised due to excessive reference to modern politics and bloviating pointlessly. ole
Beowulf
I am trying to understand, now. You comment about 'current politics'. Because they didn't use certain words that we do, today, these ideas did not exist in those times?
Balance excised due to excessive reference to modern politics and bloviating pointlessly. ole
Beowulf
Objection, your honor! These politics are older than the Contest, itself! Nothing 'Modern' about them!
Old Grey Wolf opened a perfectly good thread about duty and honor discussing what might be interesting to many members. But you, again, interfered with your screed about left- and right-wing and blue and red state nonsense. You are perfectly free to take that to the "General Discussions" forum. I will not let it run by on any other thread. ole
Objection, your honor! These politics are older than the Contest, itself! Nothing 'Modern' about them!
Old Grey Wolf opened a perfectly good thread about duty and honor discussing what might be interesting to many members. But you, again, interfered with your screed about left- and right-wing and blue and red state nonsense. You are perfectly free to take that to the "General Discussions" forum. I will not let it run by on any other thread. ole
Probably not, The idea of honor and duty are far too deeply individual for me to make a comment one way or another. I can give you examples in learning from my mother and father, but that's not the same.
On another note, it was a few years before I learned that "doing your duty" was more than pooping. When THE mom said, "did you do your duty?
she was really asking if you were going to sleep through the night. To this day, I associate duty with pooping. Might that explain a certain amount of wierdness? (I wonder if that ought to be spelled dooty?)
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Probably not, The idea of honor and duty are far too deeply individual for me to make a comment one way or another. I can give you examples in learning from my mother and father, but that's not the same.
On another note, it was a few years before I learned that "doing your duty" was more than pooping. When THE mom said, "did you do your duty?
she was really asking if you were going to sleep through the night. To this day, I associate duty with pooping. Might that explain a certain amount of wierdness? (I wonder if that ought to be spelled dooty?)
ole
When two sides argue over something, and they have vastly different arguments over the same issue, and
have 'to cross picket lines' in order to even get near the other side's argument...
Then that argument has a third cause; a third reasoning.
A third unseen catalyst.
Whose success in keeping the Conflict alive, forever, depends entirely upon secrecy.
A catalyst whose very organic nature depends upon protection from exposure.
You can pull a UnionBlue, and limit the fight strictly to the battlefield... and still, your enemies are not in front of you. You can't even see them, from there.
You can pull a UnionBlue, and limit the fight strictly to the battlefield... and still, your enemies are not in front of you. You can't even see them, from there.
Most of those who frequent these boards would agree that an argument ought to remain on topic, and I don't see many of them who consider another an "enemy."
Repeat. Once more. If your need is to shout libertarian convictions from the rooftops, have at it in the forum designed for such: it's called "General Discussions." Meanwhile, I've become thoroughly exasperated with your constant hijacking of threads so you can spew.
Old Gray Wolf started a thread and got some discussion going. I don't share his views, but that's of no consequence. He got a discussion going and that's the sole intention of this board. And then you waltzed in with your left-wing collectivist blue-state/red-state nonsense and disrupted the process. That's just disrespectful and rude to those members who are here to discuss, disagree, and learn something.
Politically, I'm probably closer to your view than many, but this is not the forum for that discussion. Read: civilwartalk. Take it somewhere else.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I cannot believe that you learned gentlemen have allowed me to get away with comparing Union force activity in the Trans-Mississippi / Frontier with the goings on in the Eastern Theater, but since you did .....
"Nits make Lice!"
What part of duty and honor does that constitute? How do you good fellows justify such outrage directed against Gen. Forrest for the alledged autrocity at Fort Pillow, Tennesse?
Last edited by OldGreyWolf; 06-02-2008 at 03:40 PM.
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