Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I have to be honest and admit that I could not sit on a jury and be impartial. I think Davis should have been tried, convicted and executed. His treason helped to make graves for over 600,000 on both sides. His getting off without even a trial made a mockery of their honorable sacrifice.
__________________
"Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
My client is ready for first appearance, and to be formally arraigned on charges.
Have you yet counsel for the plaintiff?
Can we set a trial date? We waive discovery, and
formal jury proceedings.
We are ready to proceed with opening statements, whenever it should please the court.
G. Beowulf, Esq.
Counsel for the Defense"
It is true that I suggested this exercise, and there seems to be some discussion about it, but I myself would hope to play no larger role than that of a member of the jury. I have no legal experience (other than being sued), so would not be good as the judge or attorney.
I've got enough on my plate with the trivia game.
I think Mr. Cash would be an excellent prosecutor.
(By the way, I am samgrant. Mr. Grant must be my father.)
-
Actually, I was rather hoping to meet Cash across the board! I accept.
FREDDY is excused by the Defense as a juror. He is
released from duty without prejudice.
(I do hope that you have not terrified opposing counsel with your publication of my PM to you, sir. I do sound rather terrifying, I must admit, especially when the United States government has historically lacked the will and the
'blood for felony' to try this case, in any court...).
Not that I can blame them, but I would enjoy beating the unholy snot out of the 'case' the 'state', or any other trying entity, would attempt to bring!
Beowulf
__________________ If the South accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and suffer terrorism by Brown's mob ,... their economy would be in shambles... The effect is that the South is not any longer an equal part of the Union.
If the South tried to gain independence from these Left wing Republicans, the North will destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
I have to be honest and admit that I could not sit on a jury and be impartial. I think Davis should have been tried, convicted and executed. His treason helped to make graves for over 600,000 on both sides. His getting off without even a trial made a mockery of their honorable sacrifice.
Okay, you can now point your finger back at Johnson and
the US Government, for not defending the blood of your gallant and valiant soldiers who died in vain trying to capture the 'Traitor' who walked, unopposed, out of the prison doors after two years of unjustified incarceration.
Go ahead. Let them have it! In Spades.
They got it coming...
Beowulf
__________________ If the South accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and suffer terrorism by Brown's mob ,... their economy would be in shambles... The effect is that the South is not any longer an equal part of the Union.
If the South tried to gain independence from these Left wing Republicans, the North will destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
While Beowulf may question my impartiality, I would be willing to sit as Judge for the exercise. I am a trained lawyer (albeit not of criminal law - my sister is the district attorney and criminal district judge in the family) with 20 years' experience in litigation (courtroom work).
While I am not a judge, I have sat as judge for three years in Teen Court (in which teens acted as prosecutors and defense attorneys for their fellow teens accused of misdemeanors) and as a judge in several mock trials.
I believe that I can put aside any partility and rule purely on the legality of evidence as presented. However, the rules of evidence would have to be modified in that pretty much everything which would be offered would be technically hearsay since the witnesses are obviously no longer in a position to testify. There would have to be an agreement in advance as to what would constitute a valid source of evidence. Davis' own words could clearly be used against him (admission of a party opponent) and I assume would also be admissible as a proxy for his direct testimony. What about statements of others who claim "Davis told me" or "I heard that Davis said." Perhaps allow statements which proport to be directly from Davis, but not "second hand" (really third hand) hearsay.
As you can see, the ground rules for any such "trial" would be as important as the trial itself.
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
I don't see many participating in such a farce. Beowulf simply wants another pulpit behind which he can dance.
oel
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
While Beowulf may question my impartiality, I would be willing to sit as Judge for the exercise. I am a trained lawyer (albeit not of criminal law - my sister is the district attorney and criminal district judge in the family) with 20 years' experience in litigation (courtroom work).
While I am not a judge, I have sat as judge for three years in Teen Court (in which teens acted as prosecutors and defense attorneys for their fellow teens accused of misdemeanors) and as a judge in several mock trials.
I believe that I can put aside any partility and rule purely on the legality of evidence as presented. However, the rules of evidence would have to be modified in that pretty much everything which would be offered would be technically hearsay since the witnesses are obviously no longer in a position to testify. There would have to be an agreement in advance as to what would constitute a valid source of evidence. Davis' own words could clearly be used against him (admission of a party opponent) and I assume would also be admissible as a proxy for his direct testimony. What about statements of others who claim "Davis told me" or "I heard that Davis said." Perhaps allow statements which proport to be directly from Davis, but not "second hand" (really third hand) hearsay.
As you can see, the ground rules for any such "trial" would be as important as the trial itself.
I hereby accept TIMEWALKER as being impartial enough to hear and try the case. The Defense accepts and does not ask TIMEWALKER to recuse himself from the bench.
As the presiding judge, I would request that you summon both opposing counsel to chambers and instruct us accordingly. This may be done in a post, with the expectations and initial discoveries you will or won't allow into evidence. If you are willing to hear anything, then advise us of this...
So let it be written, so let it be done!
G. Beowulf, Esq.
Counsel for the Defense
__________________ If the South accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and suffer terrorism by Brown's mob ,... their economy would be in shambles... The effect is that the South is not any longer an equal part of the Union.
If the South tried to gain independence from these Left wing Republicans, the North will destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
I don't see many participating in such a farce. Beowulf simply wants another pulpit behind which he can dance.
oel
Nay, friend Ole!
How many 'at the North' would like to see me juggle all this
at once, believing that I shall ultimately fail?
Aren't you even the least bit interested in what would become of Davis in a court of law?
If you have never done moot court, it is a blast! I have actually presided over one in corrections academy, and
we really got into it! Case law was flying back and forth like bullets!
It's worth it, especially this one!
Beowulf
PS
I can walk you guys through it, if you aren't sure what 'comes next', or whatever. I can step out of counsel for the defense and instruct, if necessary. I think this would be
great fun for both sides of this issue... I think TIMEWALKER will know what comes next and it will be great to have an actual judge on the bench!
__________________ If the South accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and suffer terrorism by Brown's mob ,... their economy would be in shambles... The effect is that the South is not any longer an equal part of the Union.
If the South tried to gain independence from these Left wing Republicans, the North will destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
"Well you do what you do and you pay for your sins, and there's no such thing as what might've been, that's a waste of time; drive you outta your mind..."
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
How many 'at the North' would like to see me juggle all this
at once, believing that I shall ultimately fail?
Aren't you even the least bit interested in what would become of Davis in a court of law?
If you have never done moot court, it is a blast! I have actually presided over one in corrections academy, and we really got into it! Case law was flying back and forth like bullets!
It's worth it, especially this one!
The beginning premise has been abandoned in that it started with what Davis said pre-war compared to what Davis said post-war. Now Beowulf is girding what loins he happens to have and preparing to do battle defending Davis against a charge of treason.
Seems that however many wanted to hang Jeff Davis from a sour apple tree, the legal minds concluded that secession was not treason. There might have been other acts under which he could have been tried, but the time had passed where anyone sane would have thrilled at his execution. The time for healing was hard on the heals of the vengeful and there was no longer anything to be gained by prolonging the enmity.
If, however, you gentlemen wish to conduct a mock trial, may I suggest that it be moved to the chatroom? There, when Beowulf launches into a tirade about liberals and collectivists, the prosecution might object and be sustained. I'm assuming it's possible to save transcripts so as to maintain some continuity.
Note: I don't get to edit the chatroom; nor may I move it to limbo. If you want a free-wheeling mock trial, that would be the place to have it. Besides, in the chatroom, responses must necessarily be short.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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