Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Exactly, which is why you should not post sound bites, ( except on the odd ociasion) certainly not make snide comments like Steele and avoid entering into any form of debate that requires critqical thinking and a knowledge of the subject matter,, but actually make counters that are both sound in fact and logic.
If you want to practice some counters to any points i make,to find weakness in them etc, and so improve your skill set, and mine, please do, if not, do something else that does not waste your mind.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Quote by diddyriddick:
I'm sure that you can produce the congressional resolution declaring war.
Quote by Hanny:I believe you've misnderstood the statement. I'm also unaware of a congrsssional resolution declaring war; I would very much like to see if it says what you say it does.
Good God, im surrounded by heathens, ill get it for you and post it.[/;quote]
Congress declared war on April 14, CSA May 16, 1861 recognised the state of war to exist.
crap, ive deleted the post when qouteing from it, sorry for any confusion.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
There was no declaration of war by Congress against the Confederacy because that would amount to calling it a separate nation. The Civil War was considered a rebellion or insurection by Congress therefor no need arose to declare war.
__________________ "Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
I look forward to your post showing that that you at least are not one of those.
As soon as you come up with the Declaration of War, I'll consider it my duty to look up the actual charges, if any.
Quote:
No the laws of the Union showed he was only a citizen of the state of Miss, and it claimed to have seceded and there was no law, nor is ther any law now, to show it had not.
Every citizen of every state was and is a citizen of the United States. You're basing your opinion on your seriously flawed argument about state citizenship.
Quote:
Bad argumenent from you, Apotomax and Belso are examples of might being right, not the law being right and able to maintained by might.
In the realistic end game, the Confederacy was wrong because it lost; the Nazis were wrong because they lost; Charlie was right because we lost. Might does make right when compromise fails.
Quote:
Even worse is to claim the constition does not provide for the ststes to have as may militia s they wish and the federal army to be so small as not to be able to coerce the states.
Who claimed that?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
No its a fact, the legislation to make USA citizens occurs 65/66 upto that point in time there were only states with citizens, as defined in the federal and state laws of naturlization and imigration. So the ignorance of US law and history is yours.
From various acts of Congress:
===== 1790 First Congress, Act of March 26th, 1790, 1 Stat. 103.
"And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States".
===== 1795 Act of January 29, 1795. Section 3, 1 Stat. 414, 415. (Same general provisions as above).
===== 1802Act of April 14, 1802. Section 4, 2 Stat. 153, 144. (Same general provisions as above).
===== 1855 Act of February 10, 1855. Section 1, 10 Stat. 604.
=====
Looks like the US Congress does not agree with you.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Nothing further, your honor. The Defense rests. call your next witness.
Beowulf
The leadership of Southern secession chose trial by combat.
If it had taken the time and consideration to chose the courtroom, who knows?
But one should not complain about the results of a contest if one has fully entered into an agreement that is to be settled by who has the biggest battalions.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
"The Montgomery Constitution is not a constitution, but a conspiracy. It does not inaugurate a government of the people, but a detestable and unrestricted oligarchy. The people were not permitted to have any say in this matter. The Convention of Montgomery has dug the grave of political liberty, and now we are summoned to attend its burial."
By Roselius, the political veteran of the state, in the State Convention of Louisiana, meeting on March 21, 1861 at New Orleans.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
1. The United States never declared war. This was in keeping with its position that the rebel states did not form a new nation, rather they were states in which a rebellion was taking place. Abraham Lincoln issued a
Proclamation that an insurrection existed in the states of SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, LA, and TX on 15 Apr 1861 (Messages & Papers of the Presidents, vol. V,
p3214). He also proclaimed a blockade of Southern harbors on 19 Apr 1861, and the date of this proclamation was taken by the Supreme Court in
several cases to be the official beginning of the insurrection.
2. The Confederate States passed "An Act recognizing the existence of war between the United States and the Confederate States" on 6 May 1861. This act exempted MD, NC, TN, KY, AR, MO, DE, and the territories of AZ and NM, and the Indian Territory south of KS.
Sources: McPherson, Battle Cry of Freedom; Official Records, Ser. IV, Vol. 1
I have reviewed the Congressional record for July 1861 and can find no declaration of war by the United States against the Confederate States. Indeed, Lincoln's proclaimation calling up 75,000 volunteers is very carefully crafted to avoid calling it a war, but rather stated that the laws were opposed by cominations too powerful for the Marshalls to surpress. He was very careful to thereby cast it as a civil insurrection - a police matter if you will - and throughout his Presidency refused to take any act which would de facto recognize the legitimacy of the Confederate States of America.
The Confederate States failed to receive recognition of a single foreign state - the necessary step under international law to be a legitimate government.
"One of the most important victories won by the United States during the Civil War was not ever fought on a battlefield. Rather, it was a series of diplomatic victories that ensured that the Confederacy would fail to achieve diplomatic recognition by even a single foreign government. Although this success can be attributed to the skill of Northern diplomats, the anti-slavery sentiments of the European populace, and European diversion to crises in Poland and Denmark, the most important factor stills rises from the battlefields on American soil. The Confederate states were incapable of winning enough consecutive victories to convince European governments that they could sustain independence."
The Confederate States of America was never a legitimate government and the United States never declared war.
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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