Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
In my limited studies on the assassination, it has always struck me as strange that, from the moment General Robert E. Lee walked out the door at Appomattox to the
release of Davis from Fortress Monroe by Johnson, history tends to go linear, and very fast, like it has been compressed, and 'agreed upon'... It once again spreads out after this time period, but during this time, there is little else but John Wilkes Booth and no other attempts at uncovering anything else. Mudd is spirited away, and the conspirators are tortured with full face and head hoods to keep them from speaking during the time before they are hanged... Booth's body is never fully agreed upon, and all the other curiosities, as we know them.
But certain of the assassination bothers me greatly. Frank Conner posits in THE SOUTH UNDER SIEGE 1830-2000 that
the Radical Republican (Liberals; his term) most likely had Lincoln assassinated to control patronage from Southern Liberals (again, his term!) after the war... in the grandest attempt yet to completely and utterly remove the memory of the Conservative Jeffersonian South from virtual existence. The Victims List is conclusive that the South did not select that menu of victims for the evening, and the enemies of (the state) Congress were all present and accounted for... It also seems likely that Booth would have preferred another listing of victims as well... being a Southern Sympathizer.
The main point I would like here addressed is Grant's role in this, his strange absence from Ford's theatre, and
his emotional well-being later on...
Do his memoirs give any indication of anything out of the way during the time of April 14, 1865?
Was he dealing with either earned or unearned guilt during this time period? Had he been 'warned' to stay away? Did he not speak about it, until he could not physically speak about it, and then, do his writings give any indication that he KNEW something that might have changed the course of history?
True, no one (not even Lincoln) could stand Mary Todd for very long... and Julia was glad to be out of that obligation for the evening... but this was five days after Appomattox and Grant is very conspicuous by his absence.
What did Grant know, and when?
Beowulf
__________________ If the South accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and suffer terrorism by Brown's mob ,... their economy would be in shambles... The effect is that the South is not any longer an equal part of the Union.
If the South tried to gain independence from these Left wing Republicans, the North will destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
I read this book when it came out and found it to be interesting. Come Retribution: The Confederate Secret Service and the Assassination of Lincoln, by William A. Tidwell, with David Wilfred Gaddy and James O. Hall, 1988
__________________
"Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
And Lee Harvey Oswald was a tool of either the CIA or the mafia. Or maybe Fidel?
Lots and lots of suspicious inklings going on. Most of it comes from freakazoids who habitually look under the bed before going to sleep. But it does make for some fun.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
While Grant was a man of war, he valued peace at home.
Think of it, Wulfie... would YOU want to sit through a play in a theater box with two women who hated each other, and face domestic discord later?
Then again, maybe the Illuminati and the Trilateral Commission HAD tipped Grant off...
All I know about President Lincoln's Assassination and the reason why General Grant was not there, is that having been only two days after the Surrender of General Robert E. Lee at Appomattox, Mrs. Grant wanted to have an opportunity to visit their children in New Jersey. As parents, General Grant and Mrs. Grant left town prior to Lincoln going to the theater with Mrs. Lincoln, Maj. Rathbone and his fiance`.
How General and Mrs. Grant got to New Jersy I haven't really researched. However, President Lincoln sat for Gardner the photographer on April 10, 1865. The assassination act took place on April 14, dying from his wounds on April 15.
I understand that Maj. General W. S. Hancock was ordered to move into Washington City (Washington, DC) and take over the City's protection and in harmony with the very young Metropolitan Police Department, which Lincoln 'founded' and patterned after the New York's Metropolitan Police; as to investigate and fully pursue the individuals in the assassination plot.
The investigation showed that John W. Booth, rented a horse from the livery stable at 6 & D Streets, NW. The rental horse's bridle was dropped along the way in the alley behind Ford's Theater, leaving across the Naval Bridge (Would be around Pennsylvania Avenue Bridge today) and fled into Maryland. Although the bridge had US Army guards, they had not been informed of the Assassination.
Personally, I think President Lincoln was just relieved to have the Civil War over with and the increasing death toll stopped. I think that having visited General Grant prior at Cold Harbor, before the surrender where Mrs. Grant stayed with the General; I think President Lincoln could appreciate the desire for the Grants to have a chance to reunite with family, in New Jersey.
I will also mention, President Lincoln and his wife's eldest son was on General Grant's staff, prior to the surrender at Appomattox, if memory serves me correctly.
At the time President and Mrs. Lincoln were at Ford's Theater on 9th Street NW, their eldest son was attending a theater mid block of 1300 blk E. Street, NW-National Theater.
All I know about President Lincoln's Assassination and the reason why General Grant was not there, is that having been only two days after the Surrender of General Robert E. Lee at Appomattox, Mrs. Grant wanted to have an opportunity to visit their children in New Jersey. As parents, General Grant and Mrs. Grant left town prior to Lincoln going to the theater with Mrs. Lincoln, Maj. Rathbone and his fiance`.
How General and Mrs. Grant got to New Jersy I haven't really researched. However, President Lincoln sat for Gardner the photographer on April 10, 1865. The assassination act took place on April 14, dying from his wounds on April 15.
I understand that Maj. General W. S. Hancock was ordered to move into Washington City (Washington, DC) and take over the City's protection and in harmony with the very young Metropolitan Police Department, which Lincoln 'founded' and patterned after the New York's Metropolitan Police; as to investigate and fully pursue the individuals in the assassination plot.
The investigation showed that John W. Booth, rented a horse from the livery stable at 6 & D Streets, NW. The rental horse's bridle was dropped along the way in the alley behind Ford's Theater, leaving across the Naval Bridge (Would be around Pennsylvania Avenue Bridge today) and fled into Maryland. Although the bridge had US Army guards, they had not been informed of the Assassination.
Personally, I think President Lincoln was just relieved to have the Civil War over with and the increasing death toll stopped. I think that having visited General Grant prior at Cold Harbor, before the surrender where Mrs. Grant stayed with the General; I think President Lincoln could appreciate the desire for the Grants to have a chance to reunite with family, in New Jersey.
I will also mention, President Lincoln and his wife's eldest son was on General Grant's staff, prior to the surrender at Appomattox, if memory serves me correctly.
At the time President and Mrs. Lincoln were at Ford's Theater on 9th Street NW, their eldest son was attending a theater mid block of 1300 blk E. Street, NW-National Theater.
Just some thoughts.
M. E. Wolf
Thank you, brother Wolf, for the posting. I knew very little if any of that.
I do not mean to implicate Grant in the plot, because I believe that Grant was probably as loyal a fellow (to his own people) as any
who could have been found, at least where Lincoln was concerned... but what might have he 'sensed' and through fatigue, or whatever, ignored... until it was too late.
What might have dawned on him, later? And did that serve to bother him? I have not read his memoirs, so I don't know.
I do not laud Grant with any praises, mind. I just think he is smart enough to notice
things out of the ordinary, and would quite possibly have captured Booth, being the absolutely and incorrigibly stubborn cuss that he was... even though Booth would have probably killed him, in the fight, with the knife, and still ended up captured because of the time lag. Grant in the equation makes it all the more interesting for me, personally.
There is a whole lot wrong with that assassination; a 'secret service' policeman missing... No real protections for the man who clearly was absolutely hated by many people North and South. Booth had to have shot his mouth off to the extent that someone could have suspected him of disloyalty, and yet nothing ever about this is raised.
THAT is the reason for my suspicions. As Sherlock Holmes said in the ADVENTURE OF THE SILVER BLAZE... when asked if there was any other point to which the man's attention should be drawn.
"To the curious point of the dog, in the night-time".
"But, Mr. Holmes, the dog did nothing in the night-time".
"That is the curious point."
In other words, all of this is just accepted, like Lincoln is some sort of human sacrifice that was almost 'to be expected'. This curious 'turning away' of all of his supporters
does not do them service, either then, or in the attitudes of his fans, to this day.
No CSI look at the facts. Just...
BOOTH. But Booth is not big enough to cover this!
No, this was clearly expected. And very insulated, as well. Time to retire the tyrant!
But... by his own people? This is worse than Stonewall Jackson's death!
(Incidentally, Ole, one does sleep better if one checks the walk-in closet just before jumping into bed! And waterbeds do not need checking under!).
This topic is kind of neutral, and without the Celtic fire that I normally like to bathe my responses in, but I do plan to come up with better in the future.
Still, I'll have to look at Freddy's book. There might be something in that.
Beowulf
__________________ If the South accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and suffer terrorism by Brown's mob ,... their economy would be in shambles... The effect is that the South is not any longer an equal part of the Union.
If the South tried to gain independence from these Left wing Republicans, the North will destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
I read this book when it came out and found it to be interesting. Come Retribution: The Confederate Secret Service and the Assassination of Lincoln, by William A. Tidwell, with David Wilfred Gaddy and James O. Hall, 1988
Thanks. I'll check through that in future, when time permits.
American Brutus is also a good read, though really doesn't step too far out of line, for very long.
That's one thing that does not bother me, blaming the South for that murder, if indeed they did do it. I think the South should have been actively trying to shut down the Lincoln administration, all along, even if they just scared the daylights out of him, or kidnapped him, like Booth originally wanted to do. But the South gets blamed for everything else, so go ahead and toss the killing of Lincoln right up there on top!
But the timing is all wrong for the South to be involved. When Lincoln was back and forth to the telegraph office at night, unchaperoned, a chance encounter with a thug would have been absolute perfect timing for his exit stage left. A quick little ET TU, BRUTE? to the ribs, drop him, and walk silently away with his wallet, for effect, (and taking the Confederate five note he kept in there (Lincoln was weird like that!), and throwing away the rest!)... Hail Caesar! The killer would have been home in bed before Lincoln was even missing...
No, I don't think the South did it. The very attitude towards assassination was more egregious than slavery, itself!
The Dahlgren affair was this assassination's inverse, I believe, and to what extent, we do not know, but I think there was some attempt on Davis at this time. Yanks in NORTH AND SOUTH Magazine fought it tooth and nail when that article came out some time ago. They went slap-off ballistic, if I remember it rightly.
Still, there was too much there to completely ignore it.
Beowulf
__________________ If the South accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and suffer terrorism by Brown's mob ,... their economy would be in shambles... The effect is that the South is not any longer an equal part of the Union.
If the South tried to gain independence from these Left wing Republicans, the North will destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
I had always heard that Julia (?) Grant, his wife had a premonition/ dream and saw her husband vanish before her- she begged him not to go. She also had told him not to go to a party fundraiser in Chicago- that turned out to be the night of the Chicago fire!
Up until the Civil War it was considered monstrous to even think of killing civilians elected to office.
Living on the path of the Assassin's escape, I have been interested in the assassination for sometime, and have been doing some reading. Here is my take on the assassination.
1) It was not an inside government plot. If it was, then they would have gotten somebody to take care of Johnson who was competent and would not have lost his courage. Booth was an angry southerner, he wanted retribution, and to boot he was a little bit on the crazy side.
2) The Confederate government had nothing to do with it. Booth, though he had contacts with the Confederate Secret Service earlier, was not ordered by them to assassinate Lincoln. As stated, he was out for his own revenge, and he wanted fame, which are normally two prime motives for an assassination, though not the only ones.
If you want a good read on the assassination, read Blood on the Moon by Ed Steers. It is by far, I think, the best treatment of the assassination there is, though I think that it aims alot towards the conspiracy side of the story. Swanson's Manhunt is a fun, easy read, but it is told more from a narrative standpoint than anything, and while it is all true, it is lacking at times.
There ya go guys. My take. Crazy man, out for fame and glory, with some revenge to boot.
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
I had always heard that Julia (?) Grant, his wife had a premonition/ dream and saw her husband vanish before her- she begged him not to go. She also had told him not to go to a party fundraiser in Chicago- that turned out to be the night of the Chicago fire!
Up until the Civil War it was considered monstrous to even think of killing civilians elected to office.
Of course, Frank Conner in The South under Siege - 1830-2000 says that Lincoln's own party shot him because he wanted to 'let the Southern Liberals up easy', bring them back in as full blown states of the Union, so that he could control the patronage. However, his Congress, themselves, wanted to control the patronage, themselves, by bringing the Southern states back in as conquered provinces, so they could pass out the candy to the Southern Liberals, and squelch the Conservatives from being allowed back in 'so easily'...
as a voting force.
This seems to truly be a Conservatives versus Liberals war, but the yankees today all still think they are 'Republican Conservatives' and not "Centrists', (which they really are) while the Libertarians, the Neo-Confederates, and the Republicans of today are still divided into Bell, Breckinridge, and Douglas! (Which crime allowed the LIBERALS to get in edgewise, in 1860, and kill 700,000 +++ American people)...
If We The Conservative People could get it together with these three parties, we could
boot Hillary, Obama, and all Liberalism into oblivion, and get a much better candidate than McCain/Lieberman!
But, that would be too easy!
Wouldn't it?
Beowulf
__________________ If the South accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and suffer terrorism by Brown's mob ,... their economy would be in shambles... The effect is that the South is not any longer an equal part of the Union.
If the South tried to gain independence from these Left wing Republicans, the North will destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
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