The Assassination Conspiracy...

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by ole

I'm impressed with your ability to poke the line without actually crossing it. The quoted statement assumes that you are right about Grant "lacking the brilliance," is challengeable, but not worth the time and effort it would take to make you take it back.

Show us, please, why you think that Grant "lacked the brilliance for conservative strategy." Although I firmly believe that silence is not definitive evidence of approval, in this case silence will be indicative. One point. One answer.

ole

First off, I was giving Grant credit for not having been in on the conspiracy. I think it craven to show collusion by his absence from Ford's Theatre, and to imply it.

That having been said, I shall also preface this with a
disclaimer, as in - I am no Grant scholar - nor have I ever studied him to any great length. What I know of him has been presented to me by the official and 'Northern-approving' sources...

And THAT having been said, here's what I was told:

1. He was not exactly anyone's first choice. He was not exactly a successful man in his private life, and he may
have either been fond of the bottle, or else what he did drink showed unfavorably upon him, as in he couldn't hold his liquor. None of this is a crime, nor is even rare in most people.

2. As for his strategy not being 'conservative', I trust the 'political' has not entered into your thinking, and I thus mean conservative in the way of conservation, and not of the politically right-winged...

Thus: Grant strikes me as a man who, unlike Sherman, knew he had the forces to destroy the Confederate South, and was bent upon doing so...

... even though that was never his job.

Sir.

You heard me right. The destruction of the South was not his job. It was never any of their jobs. The preservation of the Union, with as little disruption as possible, was their job, according to the North.

A flag change. Back to the old flag, now under new management.

This idea that the Southern nation needed to be annihilated through total warfare is a crime. Sherman even admits as much.

Therefore, Grant lacked the brilliance for Conservative strategy by doing everything in his power to get to the endgame of this Chess match as quickly as possible, and start trading down pieces. A mathematician (which I was, at one time, and even tutored some Calculus in college for engineering students; Quadratic equations, Trigonometry, and advanced Algebra courses. I paid my way through school teaching several students and am a member of the Mu Alpha Theta Mathematics Honor Society..) does these things.

A. He ended prisoner exchanges, in order to simplify his mathematics, and get right to an end game. he explains so in his own words.

B. He goes to Lee with the idea of surrender, and cannot seem to foment the decisive strike in any other terms (note the crushing headache from stress). He wants the endgame to come to an immediate end. I have always thought that he thought himself out-general-ed by Lee, and was living in fear that his victory would somehow 'go South' on him...

C. He would have had a very different outcome had the sides been anywhere near matched, in either materiel, or numbers of men, and their replacement abilities.

D. Brilliance as I am referring to it is not flaunting your advantages, but in keeping your losses down all the while
outmaneuvering your opponent. Stonewall-style. TJ could do it against ten to one odds. Grant would have been utterly consumed under such conditions, and utterly lost!
As would most generals in such conditions.

E. Unconditional Surrender. Now there's a really conservative idea! Never mind that this war is
absolutely the most retarded thing that has ever
hit this country, but not even considering negotiating any of the terms? And being known for that?

Oh, it sounds cool to the North a hundred fifty years later... but again, NOT CONSERVATIVE. NOT BRILLIANT.


I will give him some credit, now:

I do give him credit at Appomattox for asking for the surrender, and for caving in to some of Lee's requests, albeit not in writing...

(But this does not give him the credit that he has been given, and that he has taken all these years for 'winning' the 'war'. That was a default situation).

He was apparently learning, though, as he did not want the celebratory cannon to be fired...

Again, a conservative move, even though it was done again to hasten the endgame, and keep firing from breaking out along the lines...

So I give him some credit. I don't know of any battlefield brilliancies which were not related to a superior force.

"The army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers, and resources..."

Robert E. Lee, General Order #9.

Had the Army of Northern Virginia 'gone guerilla', and broke out of Appomattox, in the dead of night, and Lee been able to reach the rest of the forces...

Grant would have been without a plan, I believe.

Again, I see no brilliancies, only a man "who looks as if he is trying to run his head through a wall, and looks as if he is just about to do it!"

But, I digress....

Beowulf

[Jules362]

Originally Posted by M E Wolf

Dear List Members,

There was only one police officer on duty to act as protection/guard. Even then, with such duty-there should have been military details for the escort of the President; to which--I would have hoped an officer armed with pistols and the escort detail with rifles would have been somewhere nearby. Again, all hind sight. I find such information missing from the reports striking. However, I admit I have not finished entirely the official records of the assassination. But, these come from the military slant.

I would also think, that Mrs. Grant would have told her husband what all she had experienced and witnessed; to which photographs would have been made of the suspects to which she could have identified as to whom made calls on her.

It is very possible, that the assassination of both Grant and Lincoln was afoot. To carry on with just Lincoln and the other officers of Lincoln's cabniet was to far along as to not be bothered with the absence of Grant. But, information would have been easy to gain-knowing Grant was out of town as not to interfere with the assassination plot and getaway.

There is also the missing comments; that Lincoln had a dream that he would not have long to live; before his trip to Ford's Theater.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

Certainly there should have been more security around Lincoln, yet it's important to remember that we had never assassinated a president before. Lincoln, while on several occasions remarked on his thoughts that he would be assassinated, still frequently walked the streets of Washington alone, or with only one of his aides.

And his dream just days [nights] before he was shot is eerie, to say the least.

Apparently Julia Grand did tentatively identify Booth from photos. From the same book we learn:

"When Lincoln's assassin John Wilkes Booth was tracked down and killed while resisting capture, Julia thought from seeing pictures of him that he was the 'dark, pale man' who had watched her so carefully at lunch and then ridden so close to the carriage taking them to the station."

And more:

"In her memoirs Julia recalled that the next morning an unsigned letter arrived, saying 'General Grant, thank God, as I do, that you still live. It was your life that fell to my lot, and I followed you on the [railroad] cars. Your car door was locked, and thus you escaped me, thank God.' (Years later, Grant confirmed that such a letter had come; soon after the assassination he said he wished he had been in the presidential box at the theater when the attack occurred, because he might have been able to disarm Booth, or step in the way of the bullet intended for Lincoln.")

[J_Man0507]

Though the discussion on Grant is an interesting one, it probably belongs in thread other than the assassination conspiracy one we are in. But I shall let the mods handle it as they will. Not my place.

As to why Grant was not at the theater that night, there are two reasons. First of all, the Grants wanted to visit their children. The war was over for the most part, and Grant had some time that he could visit with them up in New Jersey. His wife wanted him to come along, and he did.

The second reason is probably the prime reason why they did not go, for I don't think they would have went even if they weren't leaving for Jersey. The reason is that Julia Grant did not have a very high opinion of Mrs. Lincoln due to a fracas that occured down at City Point several weeks prior to the assassination. Mrs. Lincoln had thrown a fit when one of the other generals' wife, a very young and pretty woman from all accounts, rode along with them, and Mrs. Lincoln became jealous and flew into a rage, claiming impropriety on the young woman's account. Julia was upset by this and saw Mrs. Lincoln as a shrill biddy who was making a fuss over nothing. She did not want to be seen with a woman who carried on thus.

It wasn't any presience, I don't think on her part that she was afraid or had some premonition of the assassination. She just didn't want to be around Mrs. Lincoln, and she wanted to see her children. It is as simple as that.

[ole]

J Man: You've summed up my understanding. It's what all the ranking historians assume, and I've seen no reason to quarrel with them. Julia Dent Grant and Mary Todd Lincoln did not like each other. Lincoln was apparently oblivious when he asked the Grants to accompany him and Mary to Ford's Theater. Julia likely took the General into a corner and read him the riot act, hence, the lame excuse that they needed to catch a train to New Jersey.

"Lame excuse." Just so. Who turns down an invitation of the POTUS to gain an extra day with the kids? I suppose it's possible, but he had been months without seeing them, and it doesn't seem that he couldn't wait another day. But maybe I've just cross-wired my argument.

ole

[ole]

Beowulf: One question. One answer. You failed.

Don't try again. I'm guilty of responding to an off-topic remark, thus being a party to a hijacking -- something I'd note if it wasn't me doing it.

Sorry guys. Can't promise it won't happen again, but I will try harder.

ole

[bankerpapaw]

Originally Posted by DJ Psychomike

An actor can't just leave the limelight! If he'd made it to Canada you can be sure he would have performed again!

I tend to agree with you. Had John Wilkes Booth escaped to anywhere, his ego would not have kept him silent. No way he would have kept quiet. As to kill Lincoln for the fame-why? He was already a well known actor. I wonder if he thought the assassination would have given his career a boost.

[diddyriddick]

"I wonder if he thought the assassination would have given his career a boost"

Maybe it wasn't about his career. Since actors by definition love to be on a stage, maybe this was his "ultimate stage." His chance to be the biggest star in the biggest production ever in America.

Just a thought

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by diddyriddick

"I wonder if he thought the assassination would have given his career a boost"

Maybe it wasn't about his career. Since actors by definition love to be on a stage, maybe this was his "ultimate stage." His chance to be the biggest star in the biggest production ever in America.

Just a thought

He was trying to live up to his daddy... who, by the way, was named BRUTUS!

Beowulf

[cw1865]

Originally Posted by ole

But maybe I've just cross-wired my argument.

Probably looking a little bit too much into that one.

Just curious, how did people buy train tickets back then? If its anything like airline tickets today where you book ahead of time and it costs money to make changes, the excuse makes more sense.

[ole]

I'm still in favor of the idea that Julia took Uley into a corner and told him that NFW was she going to spend an evening with that witch (rhymes anyway, and doesn't get bleeped). Here was the commanding general of all the US Armies and, yes, when Julia yelped, he stood to attention.

Ergo, take Julia's train reservations and beg off.

ole