Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I may be a Yankee by birth, but I think they got it wrong on this one. And I wouldn't say they lied, per se, but they were not very discerning in listening to witnesses and looking at the evidence. Lots of what was testified to didn't match up to other bits of testimony given by others.
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
showing that he knew Booth. Whether everyone in on the kidnapping had signed on for the killing- I don't know. But there was clearly a conspiracy.
The damage to the Constitution was done, so killing Lincoln only served to elavate him to Sainthood. Now, if the man had been taken out BEFORE the war, there might have been a peaceful transition for the South to leave slavery. No war.
After the fact was just for show... and Booth's ego!
From Wikipedia:
Dr. Mudd gave a sworn statement to the investigating detectives. In it, he told about Booth's visit to Bryantown in November 1864, but then said "I have never seen Booth since that time to my knowledge until last Saturday morning."
That confession was according to another person, George Dutton. There is no signed confession concerning the conspiracy by Samuel Mudd. Here is Captain Dutton's letter.
Camp Fry, Washington, D.C.
August 22,1865.
Brig. Gen. Joseph Holt,
Judge Advocate General, U. S. A.:
Sir - I am in receipt of your communication of this date, in which you request information as regards the truthfulness of certain statements and confessions reported to have been made by Dr. Mudd while under my charge, en route to the Dry Tortugas.
In reply, I have the honor to state that my duties required me to be constantly with the prisoners, and during a conversation with Dr. Mudd, on the 22nd of July, he confessed that he knew Booth when he came to his house with Herold, on the morning after the assassination of the President; that he had known Booth for some time but was afraid to tell of his having been at his house on the 15th of April fearing that his own and the lives of his family would be endangered thereby. He also confessed that he was with Booth at the National Hotel on the evening referred to by Weichmann in his testimony; and that he came to Washington on that occasion to meet Booth by appointment, who wished to be introduced to John Surratt; that when he and Booth were going to Mrs. Surratt's house to see John Surratt, they met, on Seventh street, John Surratt, who was introduced to Booth, and they had a conversation of a private nature. I will here add that Dr. Mudd had with him a printed copy of the testimony pertaining to his trial, and I had, upon a number of occasions, referred to the same. I will also state that this confession was voluntary, and made without solicitation, threat or promise, and was made after the destination of the prisoners was communicated to them, which communication affected Dr. Mudd more than the rest; and he frequently exclaimed, "Oh, there is now no hope for me." "Oh, I can not live in such a place."
I haven't found anything about President Lincoln having dinner with the Pickett Family during Gettysburg--yet! If I do find something to establish one way or another--I shall.
That said, it must be mentioned; that President Lincoln's wife, Mary Todd Lincoln had many relatives who fought on the Confederate side. No doubt, there might be connections that criss-cross. And, that is the sadness of the American Civil War; there were often relatives killing another relative and or friend.
As I am responding to this, in post--the music on my PC playing is "Abide With me" played by a Civil War Brass Band -- ("We must never forget what they did here" - Gettysburg Address - Abraham Lincoln)
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
In regard to the "Assassination Conspiracy" of President Lincoln; there will be as many possibilities as what is offered on a hearty buffet` or self serve 'salad bar.'
The military and the small Metropolitan Police Department did what they could and, I would remind all --that, in the time of the Civil War; there was no finger print taking and crude methods of collecting evidence. There was no lie detectors.
However, what is felt, that there was a lot of 'guilt by association,' and General W. S. Hancock, who had to be transfered off the battle field due to the Gettysburg wounds still festering as to cause him to ride in a ambulance; was given the post created for this hero --and, now--again with a monumental task of 'investigations' and 'justice,' as martial law was still in affect as well as the suspension of habous corpus--, had a commission set up as to investigate as thoroughly as possible all the evidence and make it as factual and fair.
Then and now, it is 'hearsay' that often is an untruth. Yet, in the era of the Civil War--lying wasn't so pronounced yet, manipulation of the truth would be; especially if it was convenient/necessary. In Dr. Mudd's case; I do believe he was extremely innocent. Yet, he was punished for giving Booth aid. Doctor's oath is neutral and duty bound to the oath. During Mudd's imprisonment, he saved many a life. I shall also add, that I seem to remember General Hancock's reservations about Mary Surratt being guilty. However, the court found them all guilty and gave the signal by clapping his hand and the defendants were hung on the Washington Arsenal Grounds - now known as Ft. Leslie P. McNair.
IF, the conspiracy was created by the South; they were a bit tardy in recalling the assassins; when General Lee surrendered at Appomatox--as loose as information and or secrets were then; it could have been called off if President Jefferson Davis choosed to. However, to me--the poor execution of the multiple victim assassination plot was not well executed by professional assassins, in my personal opinon--which leads me to believe, that it was a 'personal' plot and not a larger conspiracy. Booth's acting career wasn't all that great during that time and ego needed to be stroked. Nobody in the Northern/Union could afford associating with him because he was too 'laxed mouth.' Maryland, to which in the Prince Georges County area had Southern sympathizers--Booth would have found safe haven but, I think had Booth not broken his leg--he would have passed Dr. Mudd by to a more friendlier reception which would take him into St. Mary's County and then the water into Virginia. (Rt. 301 from Maryland into Virginia).
What Booth did, was just martyr a most kind President, Abraham Lincoln and caused the Southern gentlemen and generals to condem the act.
It is my personal belief, that those of the likes of General Robert E. Lee, General James Longstreet, General George Pickett (to whom owed his West Point appointment to President Lincoln) and others--felt that this assassination would hurt the chances of the South dramaticly. I feel, that they would now be held in suspicion -- if not on public opinion but political opinion and -- their paroles and pardons, to which President Lincoln would have been just as gracious and giving as General Grant--if not more. Lincoln was 'everybody's hope.'
IF, President Lincoln would have lived--perhaps, he would have held a third term and see that the Nation was well on it's way of healing and enveloping one another as 'Americans.' Perhaps then, the need for General Grant, to whom knew of Lincoln's desires for peaceful transitions; might not have felt obligated to run for President; and or those others to whom fought in the Civil War and took on the mantle of President.
That all said; back to evidence -- the collection of evidence, although crude still flows in the connection to the individuals. IF, Booth was dead as to not be able to excuse individuals from the 'assassination plot,' by his own testimony; the assumption as well as coincidental evidence; as well as 'hearsay' apparently was admitted with eye-witness accounts, from Major Rathbone and his fiance`; the guests at Ford's Theater, the stable who rented Booth the horse, the Army Lieutenant who found the bridle off the rental horse that had the stable's ID tag on it; the other witnesses that would have been interviewed--the judicial system did the best they could. And, in the present day--the courts do as then; often with the same skewed form of justice and it's administration, despite all the technical and scientific developments.
I cannot forget, the statement in the tent that General Lee said, talking to General Longstreet; in the movie Gettysburg; where Lee tells Longstreet; "We move on the words of an actor?" Longstreet's reply, "Can't afford not to." Although General JEB Stuart wasn't reporting in intelligence-- the thought strikes me; that perhaps the 'credibility' of an actor wasn't great. Question being -- was this movie production license or, was there something in General Lee's personal papers that gave an impression of actors in general, especially after Lincoln's assassination(?)/(.)
Just some thoughts.
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
Wolf! A THIRD term with Lincoln! An extended military dictatorship? Great, now I have new nightmare material!
A kidnapping plot would have resulted in the death penalty. Even today, a kidnapping plot that resulted in murder would mean all involved would be charged with murder.
Mary was innocent like Ethel Rosenberg was innocent. Ethel typed up the spy documents for Julius- just as I'm sure Mary brought tea in for the Booth crew, and knew what was going on.
Keep in mind, the South had watched freed blacks executed, women raped, homes looted and burned, livestock taken- this was all a new kind of warfare in America.
When Lincoln sent men with orders to assassinate the leaders of the South he opened a door that swings both ways. It would also be used over the decades to kill leaders abroad- from the head of South Vietnam, to attempts on Castro, to Allende in Chile. Anyone who emulates Lincoln can now use his "special powers", "emergency powers" etc. to justify killing foreign leaders. Just as Lincoln tried to do.
Do I think that Southern Intel was involved? If they were, they were horribly incompetent!
How General and Mrs. Grant got to New Jersy I haven't really researched. However, President Lincoln sat for Gardner the photographer on April 10, 1865. The assassination act took place on April 14, dying from his wounds on April 15.
The Grant's traveled by train from Washington. At Philadelphia, the Grants stopped for dinner at a hotel. Grant ordered oysters, and Julia said, "before they were ready for him a telegram was handed to him, and almost before he could open this, another was handed to him, and then a third.....The General looked very pale and told his wife, "Something serious has happened. Do not exclaim. Be quiet and I will tell you. The president has been assassinated at the theater. I must go back at once. I will take you to Burlington...see the children, order a special train, and return as soon as it is ready."
This appears to have happened on the evening of the 14th, and although Lincoln didn't die until the next morning, it seems that whatever was in the telegrams either said Lincoln was dead, or indicated that his wound was so severe that he could not survive since Grant appears to have believed at that moment that Lincoln was dead.
__________________ "In leaving this unpretentious record, therefore, I seek to do simply what I would have had my fathers do for me.
KINSMEN OF THE COMING CENTURIES, I BID YOU HAIL AND GODSPEED!"
[From his Introduction to "Memoirs of a Volunteer," by John Beatty - published in 1879
I had always heard that Julia (?) Grant, his wife had a premonition/ dream and saw her husband vanish before her- she begged him not to go. She also had told him not to go to a party fundraiser in Chicago- that turned out to be the night of the Chicago fire!
Julia Grant was said to be somewhat psychic, but on April 14th some incidents occurred that made her very uneasy. The Grants were staying at the Willard Hotel in Washington, had been invited to accompany the Lincolns to the theater that evening, but declined in favor of visiting their children in New Jersey.
"At noon a man whose looks Julia did not like arrived at the hotel and said to her, 'Mrs. Lincoln sends me, Madam, with her compliments, to say that she will call for you at exactly eight o'clock to go to the theater.'
"On hearing what he had to say - there was no written message, and in any event it 'seemed like a command' - she told the man to convey her regrets to Mrs. Lincoln...The man persisted, saying, 'Madam, the papers say that General Grant will be with the President tonight at the theater.' Julia told him to leave.
"Julia was having a late luncheon with Mrs. Rawlins and her little girl at the hotel when four men came in and sat at the next table. Julia thought she recognized the man who had brought the message purporting to be from Mrs. Lincoln, and she was particularly struck by the behavior of 'a dark, pale man' who 'played with his soup spoon, sometimes filling it and holding it half-lifted to his mouth but never tasting it. This occurred many times. He seemed also very intent on what we and the children were saying. I thought he was crazy.'
".....That evening as Grant, Julia, and their young son Jesse rode to the station with the wife of General Rucker, whose carriage they were in, Julia recalled, speaking of the strange person she had seen at lunch, 'This same dark, pale man rode past us at a sweeping gallop on a dark horse - black, I think. He rode twenty yards ahead of us, wheeled and returned, and as he passed us both going and returning, he thrust his face quite near the General's and glared in a disagreeable manner.' Mrs. Ruckner said, 'General, everyone wants to see you.' Grant replied, 'Yes, but I do not care for such glances. They are not friendly.' "
The suggestion that Grant was somehow involved in Lincoln's assassination is nothing more than the "North Bad, South Good" concept that has been promoted by Southern apologists. Grant and Lincoln had formed a close and friendly, even affectionate, relationship. They admired each other, and in many ways they spoke the same language, although Lincoln was far more inclined to talk than Grant who appeared to many of his contemporaries as rather shy.
Consider the mind-set of the country when Lincoln was murdered. It was less than a week after General Lee had surrendered at Appomattox Court House. Although the fighting continued for a while in the deep south, the North held Richmond, and the most fearsome Confederate army had been broken up. While this was a great disappointment to the people in the South who had supported secession, the people in the North were jubilant. Suddenly this president who had been so often maligned by the press was nearly walking on water.
And now, in an instant he was gone, killed by a Southerner. Is it any wonder the people in the North blamed the South, believed for a time that the conspiracy involved persons such as Jefferson Davis? As I remember, there was even a call for the hanging of General Lee.
Southerners for the most part were horrified. Even Jeff Davis expressed his regrets at the assassination. It is probably a given that at least part of the worry in the South had to do with not knowing whether or not the North would take revenge. And it might have, had it not been for cooler heads, one of which was attached to the neck of U.S. Grant.
There was nothing about General Grant that was vindictive or hateful. His greatest strength as a soldier was his tenacious, bulldog ability to fight, and fight hard. Whatever weaknesses he may have had, he did not lack courage, honor, integrity and a sense of fairness. This was not a man who would have even considered being part of the murder of a friend.
I remember November 1963 and the horror of the assassination of JFK, which was shared by millions of Americans. Yet I believe it was much worse in 1865 for people [both sections] who had just lived through the bloodiest war this nation has ever fought.
I'll get off of my soapbox now.
__________________ "In leaving this unpretentious record, therefore, I seek to do simply what I would have had my fathers do for me.
KINSMEN OF THE COMING CENTURIES, I BID YOU HAIL AND GODSPEED!"
[From his Introduction to "Memoirs of a Volunteer," by John Beatty - published in 1879
I neglected to name the source quoted in my two posts above. Everything in quotes comes from "Grant and Sherman: The Friendship That Won The Civil War, by Charles Flood.
The parts not in quotes are pretty much my own rants.
__________________ "In leaving this unpretentious record, therefore, I seek to do simply what I would have had my fathers do for me.
KINSMEN OF THE COMING CENTURIES, I BID YOU HAIL AND GODSPEED!"
[From his Introduction to "Memoirs of a Volunteer," by John Beatty - published in 1879
Julia Grant was said to be somewhat psychic, but on April 14th some incidents occurred that made her very uneasy. The Grants were staying at the Willard Hotel in Washington, had been invited to accompany the Lincolns to the theater that evening, but declined in favor of visiting their children in New Jersey.
"At noon a man whose looks Julia did not like arrived at the hotel and said to her, 'Mrs. Lincoln sends me, Madam, with her compliments, to say that she will call for you at exactly eight o'clock to go to the theater.'
"On hearing what he had to say - there was no written message, and in any event it 'seemed like a command' - she told the man to convey her regrets to Mrs. Lincoln...The man persisted, saying, 'Madam, the papers say that General Grant will be with the President tonight at the theater.' Julia told him to leave.
"Julia was having a late luncheon with Mrs. Rawlins and her little girl at the hotel when four men came in and sat at the next table. Julia thought she recognized the man who had brought the message purporting to be from Mrs. Lincoln, and she was particularly struck by the behavior of 'a dark, pale man' who 'played with his soup spoon, sometimes filling it and holding it half-lifted to his mouth but never tasting it. This occurred many times. He seemed also very intent on what we and the children were saying. I thought he was crazy.'
".....That evening as Grant, Julia, and their young son Jesse rode to the station with the wife of General Rucker, whose carriage they were in, Julia recalled, speaking of the strange person she had seen at lunch, 'This same dark, pale man rode past us at a sweeping gallop on a dark horse - black, I think. He rode twenty yards ahead of us, wheeled and returned, and as he passed us both going and returning, he thrust his face quite near the General's and glared in a disagreeable manner.' Mrs. Ruckner said, 'General, everyone wants to see you.' Grant replied, 'Yes, but I do not care for such glances. They are not friendly.' "
The suggestion that Grant was somehow involved in Lincoln's assassination is nothing more than the "North Bad, South Good" concept that has been promoted by Southern apologists. Grant and Lincoln had formed a close and friendly, even affectionate, relationship. They admired each other, and in many ways they spoke the same language, although Lincoln was far more inclined to talk than Grant who appeared to many of his contemporaries as rather shy.
Consider the mind-set of the country when Lincoln was murdered. It was less than a week after General Lee had surrendered at Appomattox Court House. Although the fighting continued for a while in the deep south, the North held Richmond, and the most fearsome Confederate army had been broken up. While this was a great disappointment to the people in the South who had supported secession, the people in the North were jubilant. Suddenly this president who had been so often maligned by the press was nearly walking on water.
And now, in an instant he was gone, killed by a Southerner. Is it any wonder the people in the North blamed the South, believed for a time that the conspiracy involved persons such as Jefferson Davis? As I remember, there was even a call for the hanging of General Lee.
Southerners for the most part were horrified. Even Jeff Davis expressed his regrets at the assassination. It is probably a given that at least part of the worry in the South had to do with not knowing whether or not the North would take revenge. And it might have, had it not been for cooler heads, one of which was attached to the neck of U.S. Grant.
There was nothing about General Grant that was vindictive or hateful. His greatest strength as a soldier was his tenacious, bulldog ability to fight, and fight hard. Whatever weaknesses he may have had, he did not lack courage, honor, integrity and a sense of fairness. This was not a man who would have even considered being part of the murder of a friend.
I remember November 1963 and the horror of the assassination of JFK, which was shared by millions of Americans. Yet I believe it was much worse in 1865 for people [both sections] who had just lived through the bloodiest war this nation has ever fought.
I'll get off of my soapbox now.
Since this is my thread, I'd like to ask you a few questions here:
Have there ever been any claims that Grant was 'in on it' which were NOT made by Southern Apologists?
I don't particularly believe that he was, as I see him as far too simple for anything requiring such depth of thought.
Forcing the Exchanges of Attrition seem to be at the very top of his mathematical skills... and such conspiratorial thinking was clearly beyond the range of his abacus!
But why does it have to be a Southern 'apologist'?
Don't 'Northerners' ever think such things? Or anyone else?
Do you really think that the South was in a shape to worry about revenge at that point, being decimated to nothing, as they were? They had been stripped of everything, and there is a maxim that states 'there is a point at which torture becomes ineffective'. I submit that they were there...
By the same token, did any of them have the sense to worry that Charles Sumner and Thaddeus Stevens would be running the patronage of Reconstruction, now that Lincoln was not around to woo Southern Cotton Whigs with patronage from the executive office?
Did they care at that point, or were they just so sick of the United States of America, The Constitution, the Declaration, and anything Red, White and Blue that the song actually now applied to them? (GOOD OLD REBEL).
As one rebel wrote, "I LOVE MY COUNTRY, BUT I'LL BE DAY-UMED IF I EVER LOVE ANOTHER ONE"!
As a Southerner, I would fear a jubilant North over a despondent one, if for no other reason than the energy levels.
From this account, it seems that Grant had his problems at the North, as well...
Killed by a Southerner? Bel Air, Maryland. Was that in the South? I am not sure...
Or, are all Southern Sympathizers also grouped as Southerners?
Beowulf
__________________ If the South accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and suffer terrorism by Brown's mob ,... their economy would be in shambles... The effect is that the South is not any longer an equal part of the Union.
If the South tried to gain independence from these Left wing Republicans, the North will destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
I had heard when I grew up in the South that two people were suspected. oddly never heard that Grant was involved. Other than when he obeyed Stanton's order not to go to the theatre. The only evidence that there was an order given to Grant exists in one book with no index. All other accounts I've read say that Grant's wife prevented him from going- just as she would prevent him from coming to Chicago for a political fundraiser the night of the Chicago fire. That she kept him away from Chicago does not prove Grant was behind the fire! So Stanton was one name I heard as a kid growing up, but his own vice- President was another!
Johnson was a Democrat bent on making the South Democrat. But he also knew Booth before the killing! This seems very odd as Booth's hatred and loathing for Lincoln was never hidden. Consider:
Approximately seven hours before shooting the president, Booth dropped by the Washington hotel which was Vice-President Andrew Johnson's residence. Upon learning from the desk clerk that neither Johnson nor his private secretary, William A. Browning, was in the hotel, Booth wrote the following note: "Don't wish to disturb you Are you at home? J. Wilkes Booth." Browning testified before the military court that he found the note in his box later that afternoon. Did Johnson and Booth know each other? In the 1997 publication "Right or Wrong, God Judge Me" The Writings of John Wilkes Booth edited by John Rhodehamel and Louise Taper it is stated on p. 146 that Booth had previously met Johnson in Nashville in February, 1864. At the time Booth was appearing in the newly opened Wood's Theatre. Also, author Hamilton Howard in Civil War Echoes (1907) made the claim that while Johnson was military governor of Tennessee, he and Booth kept a couple of sisters as mistresses and oftentimes were seen in each other's company. Lincoln had essentially ignored Johnson after Johnson's embarrassing behavior on Inauguration Day. Mary Todd Lincoln felt Johnson was involved. On March 15, 1866, she wrote to her friend, Sally Orne:
"...that, that miserable inebriate Johnson, had cognizance of my husband's death - Why, was that card of Booth's, found in his box, some acquaintance certainly existed - I have been deeply impressed, with the harrowing thought, that he, had an understanding with the conspirators & they knew their man... As sure, as you & I live, Johnson, had some hand, in all this..." Mary Todd Lincoln to her friend, Sally Orne, in a letter dated March 15, 1866
Some members of Congress also thought Johnson was involved and a special Assassination Committee was established to investigate any evidence linking Johnson to Lincoln's death. Nothing suspicious was ever found by the committee; yet a belief by some Americans that Johnson was somehow involved with Booth continued for many years. http://home.att.net/~rjnorton/Lincoln74.html
An interesting theory at the time was that the Vatican had ordered Lincoln's killing ( the Pope had begged Lincoln to use the courts and not war to settle the matter - plus Protestants really hated Masons and Catholics in those days). I don't think anyone seriously believes that one anymore, but who knows.
I don't think it really matters much. The harm was already done, and the Lincoln effect we live with today. Just a few days ago President Bush's administration said it was fine for people to be taken from their homes in the U.S. without charges or trail and held indefinitely. He's right. And assassination did not end that "special powers" act.
Now, if he'd been killed BEFORE the war...... oh well, that's a different "what if".
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