Slave Breeding; Fact or Fiction

[Hanny]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Hanny did you consider the population increase due to immigration? Between 1800-1860 a conservative estimate using available statistics puts the increase in immigrant population at 13 million. Most of those immigrants settled in the North and West. Would not that decrease the percentage of Northern births in the period from 1800-1860?

Freddy

Those numbers are taken directly from the 1860 census, i have the seperate imigration details broken down by country of origin and time frame, but not age group, its only the census data that breaks it down into that degree of acuracy/intrest. So the answer to your query, is that imigration pop growth is included in those % figures, of population growth, but i do havea nice liost of imigration over time if that is of intrest to you, broken down by country of origin,

[Hanny]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

Hanny; I don't have the time today to answer your posts point for point but firmly believe you deserve that courtesy. You and I will never see eye to eye, in this there is no problem. I view you as an eager defender of slavery and are passionate about it. Fine, you have that right. I don't have to like it but you have that right.

No problem.

A clarification or two, im not defending slavery im explaining it, there is a difference, since most view/understanhding of it, is inconstant with the facts. 2% or so is the number of members of all the abolition societys, as a % of the national total
and is generaly used asa measure of the number of abolitionist. When free it was incrediably difficult, to return to a state of slavery except with the person consent, which was why the most freed peopled returned to slavery where those of the free north selling thmselves back into slavery to anti slavery owners in the middle and upper south, to gain those states citizenship after one years service and residence in state different from that of there owner. 7 CSA states had ended slavery before the 13th was ratified.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Hanny

Freddy

Those numbers are taken directly from the 1860 census, i have the seperate imigration details broken down by country of origin and time frame, but not age group, its only the census data that breaks it down into that degree of acuracy/intrest. So the answer to your query, is that imigration pop growth is included in those % figures, of population growth, but i do havea nice liost of imigration over time if that is of intrest to you, broken down by country of origin,

If you could provide a link for those statistics that would be helpful.

[ole]

[quote]...which was why the most freed peopled returned to slavery where those of the free north selling thmselves back into slavery to anti slavery owners in the middle and upper south, to gain those states citizenship after one years service and residence in state different from that of there owner.QUOTE] Gotta start with "most," Hanny. But getting over that hurdle, we can move one.

Good to see you back. Hope your "business" was routine and not, as so often happens, some serious trouble.

Golly! Are we getting away from a discussion of "slave breeding? I hope not. I have found my surly pen.

ole

[Hanny]

Originally Posted by Freddy

If you could provide a link for those statistics that would be helpful.

I dont have a link at hand, ill scan it in for you, prob Tues, if you have a copy of the historical statistics of the US from colonial times to the present, some of it is in there, from 1820-60 the total imigartion to the US was 5 million or so, Irish and german makeing up the bulk of that, so im unclear where the 13 million you mentioned comes from, also from the 1850 census onwards the origin of birth was recored so we know a little more about nationality of citizens and residency.

[Hanny]

Gotta start with "most," Hanny. But getting over that hurdle, we can move one.

I was after the diffulty of returning free people to a stste of slavery, a very rare and difficult thing to happen, the only measurable numbers i knoiw of are those free northern blacks with skill sets in demand, who were denied state citizenship when emanicpated, and for whatever reasons wanted it, willingly sold themselves back into slavery,to anti slave white, who used the lived outside the state fora year ability to free slaves, took some of the income from the slave to fund abolition and so0 on, but this was small scale.

Good to see you back. Hope your "business" was routine and not, as so often happens, some serious trouble.

I got an oportunity to do an archeolgy dig, which is something ive always wanted to do, and have a little free time now.

Golly! Are we getting away from a discussion of "slave breeding? I hope not. I have found my surly pen.

No such thing as slave breeding, any more than there was forced breeding of white women.

[Battalion]

Originally Posted by Hanny

A clarification or two, im not defending slavery im explaining it, there is a difference, since most view/understanhding of it, is inconstant with the facts....

Oh, but Hanny, that is not acceptable...

The PC version of history requires that the slavery which existed in the southern United States be described as the worst form of slavery that ever existed...anywhere, anytime.

Any watering-down of this makes you a 'defender of slavery'...(in the world of PC that is ).

[Hanny]

Originally Posted by Battalion

Oh, but Hanny, that is not acceptable...

The PC version of history requires that the slavery which existed in the southern United States be described as the worst form of slavery that ever existed...anywhere, anytime.

Any watering-down of this makes you a 'defender of slavery'...(in the world of PC that is ).

Ah, yes, the most productive slavery anywhere in history was one in which people were worked to death to make it so, and repalced by forced brreeding, instead of one in which how to motivate by reward as well as coercion reached its pinacle of the slave systmes operation, and had slaves earning through rewrds ata 20% of national income level.


As soon as people can laern to count and stop thinking of US slavery as communist labour camps, write large, the better.

[Hanny]

Formats a little hard on the eyes, my scanner not set up to change the OR very well so you will need to tinker with it some.


Appendix Tables
Table A.S.l. Immigration into the
United States, 1820-60
All Other
Year countries Ireland Germany countries
1820 17,197 3,614 968 12,615
1821 15,688 1,518 383 12,787
1822 15,723 2,267 148 13,308
1823 13,017 1,908 183 10,926
1824 13,203 2,345 230 10,628
1825 14,980 4,888 450 9,642
1826 19,732 5,408 511 13,813
1827 30,330 9,766 432 20,132
1828 33,236 12,488 1,851 18,897
1829 32,018 7,415 597 24,006
1830 40,142 2,721 1,976 35,445
1831 58,269 5,772 2,413 50,084
1832 77,422 12,436 10,194 54,792
1833 69,346 8,648 6,988 53,710
1834 81,311 24,474 17,686 39,151
1835 51,075 20,927 8,311 21,837
1836 89,826 30,578 20,707 38,541
1837 89,307 28,508 23,740 37,059
1838 89,817 12,645 11,683 65,489
1839 69,810 23,963 21,028 24,819
1840 89,113 39,430 29,704 19,979
1841 83,256 37,772 15,291 30,193
1842 10,145 51,342 20,370 38,433

All Other
Year countries Ireland Germany countries
1843 74,199 19,670 14,441 40,088
1844 88,554 33,490 20,731 34,333
1845 25,068 44,821 34,355 45,892
1846 74,936 51,752 57,561 65,623
1847 239,897 105,536 74,281 60,080
1848 240,671 112,934 58,465 69,272
1849 293,243 159,398 60,235 73,610
1850 290,783 164,004 78,896 47,883
1851 373,324 221,253 72,482 79,598
1852 363,842 159,548 145,918 58,376
1853 360,505 162,649 141,946 55,910
1854 420,292 101,606 215,009 103,677
1855 196,671 49,627 71,918 75,126
1856 196,458 54,349 71,029 71,080
1857 247,031 54,361 91,781 100,889
1858 120,507 26,873 45,310 48,324
1859 118,011 35,216 41,784 41,011
1860 149,321 48,637 54,491 46,193
Sources: For all countries: Peter D. McClelland and
Richard Zeckhauser, Demographic Dimensions of the New
Republic: American Interregional Migration, Vital Statis-
tics and Manumissions, 1800-1860 (Cambridge University
Press, 1982), p. 113; for Ireland and Germany: U.S. Bureau
of' the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States,
Colonial Times to 1970, part 1, (U.S. Government Printing
Office, 1975), series C89, C92, C95, p. 106.


1850 and 1860 cenus showing the
Table A.53. (cont.)
Census division of birth showing who moved from where and settled.
Total
Census division of native New Middle East North West North South East South West South Pacific
residence population England Atlantic Central Central Atlantic Central Central Mountain
1850 12.3
New England 2,821.8 2,367.9 237.4 171.2 9.4 5.9 5.5 1.1
11.1 16.7
Middle Atlantic 5,484.0 46.6 4,566.5 725.1 39.1 19.8 12.7 2.3
55.2 13.3
East North Central 2,757.4 2.4 16.3 2,582.6 96.7 21.8 14.6 2.5
7.0 8.9
West North Central 373.5 0.2 0.6 12.8 334.7 3.0 11.6 1.3
South Atlantic 3,764.8 5.1 0.5 65.5 0.5 8.3
60.7 286.2 80.8 446.4
East South Central 2,179.5 0.5 1.8 184.6 131.1 2,811.3 1,705.0 123.3 0.8 10.4
22.0 1.6
West South Central 286.0 0.4 0.9 2.8 3.4 5.8 270.1 0.1
0.9 0.0
Mountain 59.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 59.8
Pacific 9.9 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 9.8
0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Total 17,736.7 2,423.2 0.0 503.3 68.5 81.3
4,884.3 3,965.3 695.2 2,907.9 2,207.7
1860 35.1
New England 3,144.6 2,584.3 212.2 224.2 57.3 7.3 5.9 6.0
12.2 47.1
Middle Atlantic 6,944.0 64.5 5,582.9 946.1 185.0 24.0 15.7 10.3
68.5 41.4
East North Central 4,562.9 5.1 29.7 4,044.3 358.7 32.2 24.0 17.1
10.4 7.2 25.2
West North Central 848.7 0.7 2.0 27.5 756.0 5.8 23.5
South Atlantic 4,264.7 6.8 0.9 133.7 3.0 14.6
67.0 265.6 126.0 411.9
East South Central 2,781.4 0.8 3.1 202.8 211.0 3,236.2 2,048.7 263.1 4.3 18.8
28.9 5.9
West South Central 550.0 0.5 1.6 4.3 7.8 8.9 518.8 0.9
1.2 100.7 0.0
Mountain 100.7 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Pacific 0.0 0.2 0.5 98.0
101.5 0.5 0.6 1.1 0.5 0.1
0.1 150.1 286.2
Total 23,298.8 2,663.1 5,899.0 5,716.0 1,702.2 3,358.5 2,538.9 984.9
Notes: New England: Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, I Central: Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, and MississiPl?i; West South C:tr\Ar:;?:r:
and Vermont; Middle Atlantic: New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania; East North Louisiana, and Texas; Mountain: Colorado, New MeX:lco, Nevada, No a ot
Central: Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin; West North Central: Iowa, tory, and Utah; Pacific: California, Oregon, and WashIngton. . . I
Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, and Nebraska; South Atlantic: Delaware, District of Colum- Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census, HistoriI.Statistis of the UnIted States from co..:';.
bia, Florida, Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia; East South Times to 1970, part 1 (U.S. Government Pnntmg Office, 1975), senes C15-24, pp.

[DHPatrick]

I don't want to seem argumentative, but frankly I find this thread in extremely poor taste. I would suspect African-Americans would probably be offended as well.

I'm not sure what aspect of the Civil War this applies to, because it would have been an issue in most Northern States that allowed slavery as well - and there were quite a few of them.