Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Did a Union fleet outside of Charleston Harbor influence the Confederate decision to fire on Fort Sumter? Mary Chesnut writes of hearing of "six ships" outside the harbor. My point is, the Confederates wouldn't have known the composition of the fleet, so they may have assumed it was more powerful than it was.
Is there any CONTEMPORARY evidence on this?
I hesitate to post anything, because we are skipping from thread to thread and this one is "States' Rights" and began with a specific question(what states' right was Lincoln going to violate?) which doesn't seem to have been answered.
A suggestion for moderators is to try to get members to post material relevant to the thread, or to start new threads. One of the good features of this forum is reading some of the old threads and following the arguments back and forth.
I realize I just posted a Ft. Sumter topic on States' Rights thread.
The "State's Rights" thread has already gone to the graveyard, every one; when willl we ever learn?
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Did a Union fleet outside of Charleston Harbor influence the Confederate decision to fire on Fort Sumter? Mary Chesnut writes of hearing of "six ships" outside the harbor. My point is, the Confederates wouldn't have known the composition of the fleet, so they may have assumed it was more powerful than it was.
The order to fire on Sumter was in the works before the "fleet" appeared. Read the OR's of the time. Anderson said he would have to evacuate by the 15th. That was rejected, probably because PGTB was directed to fire on the fort and that was probably because the Confederate Congress knew almost all of the details of Fox's expedition. It was not an accident.
On the 11th, Beau and Anderson were almost chatting. Anderson allowed that he'd have to abandon the fort by noon on the 15th. Beauregard took that into consideration and was amenable. But he did get orders to reduce the forth, presumably because the Fox expedition was expected. Without responding to Anderson's offer to leave, Beau sent back word at 0320 that, in one hour, he would fire on Ft. Sumter. Within 10 minutes of the stated hour, he did.
Charleston, Beauregard and Davis knew of Fox's expedition from the hour it sailed. There is no doubt of that. And it was a formidable force: four tugs, a steamer, a cutter. and a couple three gunships to cover the tugs. We can easily say that the "invasion" was benign but, given the times, it was clearly provacative.
I really do believe that Lincoln was sincere when he said "if not contested, nothing would happen beyond resupply." But he knew it would be contested and he painted the Confederacy with the aggressor label. Major coups. Davis knew that Lincoln had given him first shot; and Davis chose to take it and run with it.
I see little immoral in that card game. Call, fold, or raise. Davis raised. And the pot, after four long years, went to?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
Charleston, Beauregard and Davis knew of Fox's expedition from the hour it sailed. There is no doubt of that. And it was a formidable force: four tugs, a steamer, a cutter. and a couple three gunships to cover the tugs. We can easily say that the "invasion" was benign but, given the times, it was clearly provacative.
ole[/quote]
Uhh, before we deny the 'provocative' invasion as 'benign', could you tell us what the ships were carrying, as in men, arms, and the like? What were the possibilities with such men to interfere with trade, shipping, and to stage an invasion of the harbor?
And what, exactly, did Lincoln want with such a rock, wasting taxpayer money out in an area where it could not defend the US mainland?
You guys ride me like a horse for my ideas, and posts... and yet expect us to buy into Lincoln's benevolence, and
the 'good' of the US government? He's not there to stir up trouble and blow the top off a powder keg?
I would be stupid to believe that! I would deserve all the derision you could possibly muster!
OK Ole,
Since this has become the Ft. Sumter thread...
Despite all the warships, soldiers, cannon and so forth, I contend this is not a military confrontation, but a political and symbolic one.
Anderson in Sumter is either a symbol of federal resolve not to allow secession, or from the secessionist's viewpoint, an intolerable, but still symbolic affront to their independence.
Lincoln's move to resupply Sumter was also a public gesture. The ship was to steam into the harbor in full daylight, unload its supplies and steam out: then the status quo would continue.
Because of the weakness of the fleet, an effective military intervention into Charleston was impossible.
But did the Confederates know that? Ole says they did.
Why didn't Beauregard(and Davis) just wait Anderson out, after he said he had three days rations left? It makes me think that the bombardment was also a symbolic/ political move on the part of Davis.
On another April, in 1775, another farmer's son told his men to make sure the redcoats fired first. Rhetorically and in political/symbolic terms, Lincoln kept putting the choice between shooting/not shooting into Davis's hands.
Beowulf,
You asked about Union military forces. Battalion's post lists all the ships, their armament, which were present and which were absent, and the 200 army men on one of the ships.
And what, exactly, did Lincoln want with such a rock, wasting taxpayer money out in an area where it could not defend the US mainland?
Asked and answered on many different threads (thank you for that). As Matthew has so eloquently posted (above), the fort was more symbolic than valuable.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Both Davis and Lincoln were sitting on a political petard. What kind of viable, independent state could allow a "foreign" military installation in its harbor? What kind of nation can tolerate giving away its property to some snivelling, renegade upstart? Sumter's importance was symbolic. As Davis himself said while urging caution on Pickens, Do not precipitate conflict over a point of honor. (not a quote; a paraphrase)
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Why didn't Beauregard(and Davis) just wait Anderson out, after he said he had three days rations left? It makes me think that the bombardment was also a symbolic/ political move on the part of Davis.
Great question. Late on the 11th, agents delivering Beau's ultimatum were told that Anderson would be leaving by the 15th. Beau heard that, asked for confirmation, and then informed Anderson, at 0320, that the bombardment would commence in one hour.
They knew the fleet was due. They knew its composition. They couldn't know that the weather delayed all but 3 ships. At 0320, I doubt very much that they actually saw the Brooklyn, the Harriet Lane, and the Pawnee. I suspect that the decision to open fire was to preclude the arrival of the ships. Davis simply couldn't allow the fort to be resupplied -- nevermind that in another month or two, it would have to be resupplied again and again and again. It simply couldn't be allowed to resupply even once.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Asked and answered on many different threads (thank you for that). As Matthew has so eloquently posted (above), the fort was more symbolic than valuable.
Although I suppose I must agree with the definition, I still cringe at the word "symbolic," as if it were trivial or not-of-this-world. I consider the intent of Lincoln to put a stop to the capitulation started by Buchanan as absolutely necessary. It was a US fort in a US harbor. To hand it over either meant that the US was intimidated at the thought of a military clash, or that it conceded the separation of the gulf states as legitimate.
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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