Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
What a lot of nonsense you post. It doesn't even make sense in terms of what you, yourself, say. Intimidation by armed force, seizure of property without due process and finally violent assault with intent to kill -- what the actions of "the South" showed it meant by "secession" in the Winter of 1860-61 -- has always been illegal in this country. "Secession" as attempted in that day was illegal under the constitutions and laws of the states that seceded themselves. Had they tried to work legally, through the Federal courts and/or the Legislative branch of the government, they stood a good chance of success. It was the very arrogance and folly of their own actions that doomed them to failure. If a state were to try to leave the Union legally today, they would still have a decent chance of success. Make at least some attempt to pay attention to reality in these interminal political diatribes you polute the ether with.
Tim
No. You are not making the sense, here, by continuing to promote that trash about how Sumter belonged to the Federal government, who had long since failed to complete the fort... and the trespassers who landed there after the Fort Moultrie abomination, and how the newly-seceded South Carolina was supposed to tolerate a blatantly and expressedly hostile foreign government, the Northern-controlled puppet-government of the United States, by allowing them to set up for an invasion of Charleston harbor by a megalomaniac Second Party side-show act named Lincoln.
Now you say that we can violate the Constitution (as forced upon the states by the Lincoln administration's followers who outlawed secession) and leave it?
Wake up, Alice! Read the WAR CONSPIRACY OF 1861 post that none of you dares to look at!
No. You are not making the sense, here, by continuing ...
Now you say that we can violate the Constitution (as forced upon the states by the Lincoln administration's followers who outlawed secession) and leave it?
Wake up, Alice! Read the WAR CONSPIRACY OF 1861 post that none of you dares to look at!
Simply proving my point. This is all just more political diatribe by you to pollute the internet with still more wasted electrons.
BTW, I did pursue your "WAR CONSPIRACY OF 1861" post enough to look at the empty pamphlet it referred to. No one bothered to answer you because it is a lot of empty rhetoric and it would have been a waste of time to discuss. I'm not surprised you like it, though: you use the same techniques of fantasy and invention and inuendo in your own claims.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
The fact remains, to protect slavery, Calhoun constructed the 'theory' of nullification of the Constitution. To protect their slaves, the southern leadership, expanded Calhoun's 'theory' to justify secession. To ensure slavery, the south seceded and attacked the United States to enforce it (secession).
It remains a historical fact, that the south would not free its slaves, even at the cost their independence. Proving that to the southern leadership, at least, independence Without their slaves, was not worth having.
The central, all consuming, Fact of the Civil War, was Slavery, Slavery, Slavery, Slavery and more Slavery.
The fact remains, to protect slavery, Calhoun constructed the 'theory' of nullification of the Constitution. To protect their slaves, the southern leadership, expanded Calhoun's 'theory' to justify secession. To ensure slavery, the south seceded and attacked the United States to enforce it (secession).
It remains a historical fact, that the south would not free its slaves, even at the cost their independence. Proving that to the southern leadership, at least, independence Without their slaves, was not worth having.
The central, all consuming, Fact of the Civil War, was Slavery, Slavery, Slavery, Slavery and more Slavery.
Slavery is still a mighty small shield to pack all those sectional Second Party war crimes behind, acting under color of the US Military!
Still, one excuse is better than absolutely none, I suppose!
Slavery is still a mighty small shield to pack all those sectional Second Party war crimes behind, acting under color of the US Military!
"Mighty small shield" is your opinion. Secession gained currency under your small shield, and it became a fact under your small shield.
Am pleased to note, Beowulf, that you are at least consistent in your inability to step away from your pulpit and stick to a subject. In this case, the subject was State's Rights and which were violated.
Among many others, I wanted to know. Thanks to you, we still have no answer.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Emancipation was one of the cutting edges of the two edged sword of Freedom. (the other cutting edge, of course, being the Union)
Slavery was the shield of the Confederacy; the very existence of the Confederacy was due to slavery and existed only as long as slavery.
Emancipation was one of the cutting edges of the two edged sword of Freedom. (the other cutting edge, of course, being the Union)
Slavery was the shield of the Confederacy; the very existence of the Confederacy was due to slavery and existed only as long as slavery.
Slavery well outlasted the Confederacy.
I personally would have used 'slavery' or any other excuse I could have come up with, being the South, to at least get to shoot back while my 'Union' was being overtaken by Consolidationalists and those who deny that secession was 'ever legal'... allowing it to slowly evaporate by a vote majority would have been craven, and cowardly.
That was an honor fight; one in which a statement is made in fighting. like the Spartan 300 of legend.
You wouldn't understand. It's a Southern thing. Celtic, actually.
And if you and the rest think that those flags and those symbols and those ideas are 'going anywhere', they aren't.
Slavery is still a mighty small shield to pack all those sectional Second Party war crimes behind, acting under color of the US Military!
Still, one excuse is better than absolutely none, I suppose!
B-
And empty rhetoric with no substance is no excuse at all.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I personally would have used 'slavery' or any other excuse I could have come up with, being the South, to at least get to shoot back while my 'Union' was being overtaken by Consolidationalists and those who deny that secession was 'ever legal'... allowing it to slowly evaporate by a vote majority would have been craven, and cowardly.
Ah, the poor, stupid, Southerner excuse, the one where the wise & intelligent leaders of the South must make up a simple reason for average Southern yeoman to die for (slavery) because they cannot grasp the complex issue of craven, cowardly Consolidatioonalists v. the right of secession. This is the most severe slap in the face of every man who died on the side of the Confederacy that I can think of and one they would resent the most if they could ever respond to it.
That was an honor fight; one in which a statement is made in fighting. like the Spartan 300 of legend.
Statements like this one cannot even begin to describe or relate the actual bravery and courage of the 'average' Southerner who fought for his home, his people and his country. It's a poor attempt by a 21st century person to justify his own point of view.
You wouldn't understand. It's a Southern thing. Celtic, actually.
Oh, we understand all right. It has nothing to do with the South, the Celts, or other bougus garbage employed by those who wish to take a period of history, twist it to the point of being unrecognizable, with no lessons from it left intact.
This is a tired, old standard formula for those who are frustrated that they are the ones not listened to, that continual rant that they have all the answers and should be the ones to decide what is best for the rest of us. They have been marginalized and pushed aside and are angry that they cannot be in charge and have things their way.
These folks will be with us always and the only time they are a threat to the rest of us is if we willingly give them power over us by ignoring our history and by not learning from it, taking the time to research and find the truth of historical events, the WHYS of history vs. the WHENS, the truth of what WAS instead of what we WISH was.
And if you and the rest think that those flags and those symbols and those ideas are 'going anywhere', they aren't.
The flags and the symbols we have little problem with. But the ideas of the time are dated and worn-out and deserve attention only when they are presented out-of-context or twisted completely out of shape.
You will see them, sir, forever!
In our museums and history books, no problem, they deserve to be remembered and learned from and about. Revised as a way of living? Courage? Honor? Duty? Comradeship? The concepts are worth saving and studying. It is in their application to certain ideals that must be guarded against. All the good intentions in the world in support of a bad cause equate to nothing.
Deo Vindice!
Beowulf
"I know of no surer way of eliciting the truth than by burying contention with the war."
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Slavery, died with the Confederacy;
The consolidationists are still out there and still advancing (according to Beowulf) he still has his excuse to shoot someone, if that is what Beowulf wants.
The honor of the south was based on the belief that white men could not to be slaves.'
Does Beowulf know that approx. 700 Thespians stood and died with the 300 Spartans, not to mention the Theban Hostages, made to fight, all mostly forgotten, dying in the service of Spartan 'pride' and do not forget the over 1000 Helots (Spartan Slaves) who had to die to satisfy their masters 'honor'.
If honor was in how many times Anglo-Saxon's kicked Celtic butt, then honor is truly a celtic thing.
God has not vindicated slavery or secession in the USA.
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