Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Would you be able to list in the same manner above the number of Confederate desertions at these times?
Just curious,
Unionblue
You might look for More ****ing than Slaughter: Desertion in the Confederate Army by Mark A. Weitz, 2005. I haven't read it, but keep meaning to find time to do so.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Battalion,
Your numbers are misleading. Noting a 67% increase, especially alone, as you did in your last post, does not take into account the increase in overall troop numbers, and it does not compare those absent with what would have been total troop numbers had they not been absent. (for instance, if you had 100 apples and 10 went missing, you ratio of MIA apples would be 10/100, not 10/90) Therefore, the men absent in June is 19.6% of the total. In December, the men absent is 23.5% of the total. This is an increase of 3.9% - an increase for sure, but not the 67% you show.
Cedarstripper
Igave you the numbers present from which you figured your amounts so how am I misleading you?
~
U.S. Army
30 June 1862 Present.....501,663.......Absent...122,571.......[Total...624,234]
31 December 1862 Present.....664,163.......Absent...204,428.......[Total...868,591]
Increase......32%........................67%
~
The number absent for June '62 is 122,571...increases by almost 82,000 or 67% (in only 6 months).
This is not alarming?
And the majority of those absences undoubtedly come from the 624k...not the 244k new recruits who had been in service for 6 months or less.
~
None of this is conclusive though...we need to know the number of desertions as of June '62 and Dec '62.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Igave you the numbers present from which you figured your amounts so how am I misleading you?
~
U.S. Army
30 June 1862 Present.....501,663.......Absent...122,571.......[Total...624,234]
31 December 1862 Present.....664,163.......Absent...204,428.......[Total...868,591]
Increase......32%........................67%
~
The number absent for June '62 is 122,571...increases by almost 82,000 or 67% (in only 6 months).
This is not alarming?
And the majority of those absences undoubtedly come from the 624k...not the 244k new recruits who had been in service for 6 months or less.
~
None of this is conclusive though...we need to know the number of desertions as of June '62 and Dec '62.
I am wondering something, here, Battalion...
I am wondering if perhaps there is not anything significant in their diaries and in the war records, themselves, which show us the importance of the emancipation proclamation
at this time...
From what scant writings I have heard, over the years, and only as 'writings' of the period, with no reference at all to this EP business, the Yankee was not in favor of the negro as an art form, solely because he was black and unwanted in the North, and there seemed to be this hostility to the Southern slave owner for making the institution work, not because of this 2008 idea that Slavery is wrong and un-Liberal, but because they, The Southerners, were able to make it work and profited from it. And actually were able to live among these people, in any sort of relationship...
This of course meant that the negro would always be with Southerners, and thus, the efforts of Lincoln and others to remove the negro from the country would be hampered.
Emancipation, to Lincoln, seemed to mean colonization and complete removal, and this makes sense, as it were the yankee "what brung 'em' here", and so he felt the right to remove them and undo their mistake.
'Cept, now, how to get out of paying the South their money back (which thing Lincoln even seems to advocate doing,
except to compensate would mean to also compensate for the money they might have made as well, and this is not just a straight buy-out, but a long term plan...
And then, who is going to build the North, if the South has no 'straw' with which to make 'bricks'?
So, the Northern government actually cut its own party's main throat in taking on the abolitionists... and dooming the South to being unable to return to negro servitude after the war...
Which in effect kills the Northern capitalists dream of living off the South through patronage, and now, they have this monkey of a federal government on their backs, and
thus the North actually try to get out of the later amendments which expand this federal power (which is what the fa-reeking South was saying, all along!).
And, after the war, there is no Wehrmacht economy, and no Southern money coming in from the South (just the body of the goose which laid the golden eggs, which is nothing more than a goose body, and not inlaid with pure gold!), so Lincoln and the Radicals also have to fear that, while they now run and rule everything, and must complete the business of consolidating the US into an empire, with amendments and other Constitutionally-questionable activities, whence will now come this grand scheme of glory? Whence shall come the money? (Lincoln's original question - 'Where will we get our Revenue'?).
So, the North exists as the North, the South now exists as the North, and still no one is paying the North, as before, with great wads of money!
So, how much was this Emancipation worth to the people of the United States, then? To be sure, the Railroad Barons did well, as did the eventual bunch that got on the Titanic... but what about the 'unchecked and federally-funded' Northern expansions? And all these freed Negroes wanting to get in on the main game? (And how many negro cowboys in the Old West were there, exactly? Hollywood says one, or maybe two. I don't recall reading about any in high school... in fact, according to the 'history' I was taught, the Negro disappears completely for a very long time, almost to the 1960's...)...
The next we hear about the Negro, there are dogs and fire-hoses and are those FEDERAL TROOPS??! And all because the SOUTH is mistreating the BLACKS again... (of course,
the Confederacy has been dead a hundred years, and many of these in power are Cotton Whig descendants, whose great grand-daddy's were really Unionists and Lincoln men and other fine Left Wingers, and so... but still, they talk funny (Southern) and the myth can stay alive! And look! There's the Klan!
(While the rest of the good Confederate Conservatives, most of whom did not own slaves, do not belong to the Klan, and have no voice at all (due to Constitutional amendments in the 1860's)... are on the side-lines, or watching it on black and white TV, and shaking their heads...).
I know the common yankee factory worker never wanted emancipation, of any kind, due to the negro taking his job... after the war. This is simple logic, for the negro is a dead weight to the economy in this regard, and favors the employer. And of course, said employer, then, owes the negro far less than Massa ever did, and while the negro has his illusion of freedom, he keeps getting hungry! And so we are back to the old plantation of our choice, but necessity keeps saying PICK ONE AND WORK!
And during the Great Flood in the early 1900's, well, slavery is re-legalized, temporarily, so the blacks don't leave the delta! And now ,how to blame this on the Confederate South, which still has not resurrected! Thus, the WHEN WEATHER CHANGED HISTORY channel gets a nice story to tell!
I don't think this is just a numbers game... Surely, some of these yanks wrote it down, somewhere. (If only we could have ever gotten them to write as much as they talk! They change their minds along the road, and we could then use the yankees of then against the ones of today!)
Lemme see, Beowulf ....... 517 posts. I recollect one or two that actually addressed the subject. Will you please get with the program?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I am wondering if perhaps there is not anything significant in their diaries and in the war records, themselves, which show us the importance of the emancipation proclamation
at this time...
From what scant writings I have heard, over the years, and only as 'writings' of the period, with no reference at all to this EP business, the Yankee was not in favor of the negro as an art form, solely because he was black and unwanted in the North, and there seemed to be this hostility to the Southern slave owner for making the institution work, not because of this 2008 idea that Slavery is wrong and un-Liberal, but because they, The Southerners, were able to make it work and profited from it. And actually were able to live among these people, in any sort of relationship...
This of course meant that the negro would always be with Southerners, and thus, the efforts of Lincoln and others to remove the negro from the country would be hampered.
Emancipation, to Lincoln, seemed to mean colonization and complete removal, and this makes sense, as it were the yankee "what brung 'em' here", and so he felt the right to remove them and undo their mistake.
'Cept, now, how to get out of paying the South their money back (which thing Lincoln even seems to advocate doing,
except to compensate would mean to also compensate for the money they might have made as well, and this is not just a straight buy-out, but a long term plan...
And then, who is going to build the North, if the South has no 'straw' with which to make 'bricks'?
So, the Northern government actually cut its own party's main throat in taking on the abolitionists... and dooming the South to being unable to return to negro servitude after the war...
Which in effect kills the Northern capitalists dream of living off the South through patronage, and now, they have this monkey of a federal government on their backs, and
thus the North actually try to get out of the later amendments which expand this federal power (which is what the fa-reeking South was saying, all along!).
And, after the war, there is no Wehrmacht economy, and no Southern money coming in from the South (just the body of the goose which laid the golden eggs, which is nothing more than a goose body, and not inlaid with pure gold!), so Lincoln and the Radicals also have to fear that, while they now run and rule everything, and must complete the business of consolidating the US into an empire, with amendments and other Constitutionally-questionable activities, whence will now come this grand scheme of glory? Whence shall come the money? (Lincoln's original question - 'Where will we get our Revenue'?).
So, the North exists as the North, the South now exists as the North, and still no one is paying the North, as before, with great wads of money!
So, how much was this Emancipation worth to the people of the United States, then? To be sure, the Railroad Barons did well, as did the eventual bunch that got on the Titanic... but what about the 'unchecked and federally-funded' Northern expansions? And all these freed Negroes wanting to get in on the main game? (And how many negro cowboys in the Old West were there, exactly? Hollywood says one, or maybe two. I don't recall reading about any in high school... in fact, according to the 'history' I was taught, the Negro disappears completely for a very long time, almost to the 1960's...)...
The next we hear about the Negro, there are dogs and fire-hoses and are those FEDERAL TROOPS??! And all because the SOUTH is mistreating the BLACKS again... (of course,
the Confederacy has been dead a hundred years, and many of these in power are Cotton Whig descendants, whose great grand-daddy's were really Unionists and Lincoln men and other fine Left Wingers, and so... but still, they talk funny (Southern) and the myth can stay alive! And look! There's the Klan!
(While the rest of the good Confederate Conservatives, most of whom did not own slaves, do not belong to the Klan, and have no voice at all (due to Constitutional amendments in the 1860's)... are on the side-lines, or watching it on black and white TV, and shaking their heads...).
I know the common yankee factory worker never wanted emancipation, of any kind, due to the negro taking his job... after the war. This is simple logic, for the negro is a dead weight to the economy in this regard, and favors the employer. And of course, said employer, then, owes the negro far less than Massa ever did, and while the negro has his illusion of freedom, he keeps getting hungry! And so we are back to the old plantation of our choice, but necessity keeps saying PICK ONE AND WORK!
And during the Great Flood in the early 1900's, well, slavery is re-legalized, temporarily, so the blacks don't leave the delta! And now ,how to blame this on the Confederate South, which still has not resurrected! Thus, the WHEN WEATHER CHANGED HISTORY channel gets a nice story to tell!
I don't think this is just a numbers game... Surely, some of these yanks wrote it down, somewhere. (If only we could have ever gotten them to write as much as they talk! They change their minds along the road, and we could then use the yankees of then against the ones of today!)
Beowulf
So, again, you cannot prove that 20,000 Union soldiers deserted the month the EP was issued or because of it specifically, is that about it?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I explained in the second sentence of my post. Gleaning a 67% increase is misleading.
Cedarstripper
"gleaning"???
122k to 204k IS a 67% increase
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
30 Jun 1862.......122,571................
31 Dec 1862.......204,428..........67%
30 Apr 1863........209,509...........2%
30 Jun 1863........211,697...........1%
31 Dec 1863........236,291.........12%
A significant increase between June and December '62 and minimal afterward.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
A significant increase between June and December '62 and minimal afterward.
You still haven't factored in the increase in the aggregate. Is there a reason in the above post that you didn't post the numbers of the present for duty?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
So, again, you cannot prove that 20,000 Union soldiers deserted the month the EP was issued or because of it specifically, is that about it?
Unionblue
At the moment, I am trying to find out whether or not yankee general James B. McPherson, him of the peculiar glint in his eye (see photo) and James M. McPherson, him of a similar glint, are related. Do you have any data on this, so I can get back to my other stumblings?
Is he related, or (as they say up North... 'or no?').
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