Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
No, I do not have to show why so many deserted at that time. An assumption has been made that 20,000 Union soldiers deserted because of the Emancipation Proclamation. The burden of proof rests on the person who made this assumption.
I have seen no evidence that makes this assumption a historical fact. Even your post above makes the following statement.
"...the common assumption..."
Herein lies my problem. Assumptions.
Again, it reminds me of a quote made by a famous author.
Belief does not make truth.
Evidence makes truth.
And belief does not make evidence.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
But what, exactly, does Slant do for truth?
It has the power to manipulate and spin. What really burns me is that there is no centrist telling of this Truth you speak of... People who are paid by the Federal government to tell what happened are SLANTED about it.
Thus, you force us to read both sides and take a mean average of what is said.
Therefore, Belief becomes the judge of truth. We catch your TRUTHS in so many of these Slants that we cannot trust you.
We cannot BELIEVE you! You are trying desperately to protect those who need exposing and admonishing. You are not the holy cause you and 'blessed history' foments, and it
just about kills you to realize this! So you SLANT. ANd we must then BELIEVE what we hear from BOTH SIDES.
And BELIEF does make Truth, when Evidence is SLANTED.
So, in other words, you can offer no proof to back up your statement that 20,000 Union soldiers deserted over the Emancipation Proclamation when it was first issued or announced.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
So, in other words, you can offer no proof to back up your statement that 20,000 Union soldiers deserted over the Emancipation Proclamation when it was first issued or announced.
Unionblue
I now do think I shall try and find some, especially since you have thrown the gauntlet down and challenged me!
You seem to enjoy asking this sort of thing, and knowing that such research is a bear to pull out of authors, and editors, because it always seems as though I am challenging their veracity, and not some faceless yank on a chat site!
But as you wish... I expect before this is over with, we shall enrage more than one author!
And perhaps we should. I think I will start plodding through McPherson, and doing the same thing with you, and goldenboy!
And if you do have any evidence that the yankee army was jumping up and down, screaming for absolute and un- bridled joy at the very mention of the EP, please don't hesitate to provide it!
This GETTYSBURG 'Jeff Daniels' worst-beards-in-cinematic-history look at bleeding heart yankee-ism is always a theme I go for when selecting a Civil War film to watch!
His speech to the 20th never fails to warm the bile springs of my gut!
So, in other words, you can offer no proof to back up your statement that 20,000 Union soldiers deserted over the Emancipation Proclamation when it was first issued or announced.
Unionblue
There was a significant increase in absences:
U.S. Army
30 June 1862
Present.....501,663.......Absent...122,571
31 December 1862
Present.....664,163.......Absent...204,428
Increase......32%........................67%
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
That is a significant increase (thanks for the numbers), but can they be convincingly tied to the Emancipation Proclamation? By my maths (and Lord knows they're not good), the percentage absent at the end of June is 20 percent; the absent at the end of December is 23.5 percent -- an increase in absentees of 17.5 percent.
The present increased by 23 percent; absentees increased by 17.5. Your figure of a 67 percent spike in the absent does not factor in the increase in the present. But a 17.5 percent increase does represent a spike. How much of this bump is attributable to Fredericksburg? Winter? Harvest? Plummeting morale? Leave? Furloughs? French Leave?
Twenty thousand attributable to the Emancipation Proclamation? Possibly, but not conclusively. That would be about two out of every hundred of the aggregate. And nine out of every hundred of the absentees.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
30 June 1862
Present.....501,663.......Absent...122,571
31 December 1862
Present.....664,163.......Absent...204,428
Increase......32%........................67%
Battalion,
Would you be able to list in the same manner above the number of Confederate desertions at these times?
Just curious,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Would you be able to list in the same manner above the number of Confederate desertions at these times?
Just curious,
Unionblue
The numbers are only absences...not desertions.
I haven't found any report of desertions for either Federal or Confederate for any specific time period.
Absences can be for many reasons (good or bad...as you already know). But a 67% increase in those absent indicates a good probability of an increase in desertions.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
30 June 1862
Present.....501,663.......Absent...122,571
31 December 1862
Present.....664,163.......Absent...204,428
Increase......32%........................67%
Battalion,
Your numbers are misleading. Noting a 67% increase, especially alone, as you did in your last post, does not take into account the increase in overall troop numbers, and it does not compare those absent with what would have been total troop numbers had they not been absent. (for instance, if you had 100 apples and 10 went missing, you ratio of MIA apples would be 10/100, not 10/90) Therefore, the men absent in June is 19.6% of the total. In December, the men absent is 23.5% of the total. This is an increase of 3.9% - an increase for sure, but not the 67% you show.
Glad someone with better maths skills weighed in here. I was treading shaky ground.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Battalion,
Your numbers are misleading. Noting a 67% increase, especially alone, as you did in your last post, does not take into account the increase in overall troop numbers, and it does not compare those absent with what would have been total troop numbers had they not been absent. (for instance, if you had 100 apples and 10 went missing, you ratio of MIA apples would be 10/100, not 10/90) Therefore, the men absent in June is 19.6% of the total. In December, the men absent is 23.5% of the total. This is an increase of 3.9% - an increase for sure, but not the 67% you show.
Cedarstripper
The numbers posted are very misleading. Prior to the establishment of the Provost-Marshal-General Bureau in April of 1863, a total of 91,088 desertions were reported in the Union Army. That is for the entire two years of the war preceding that event.
If anyone wants to plow through the mountain of reports that make up that total, they might be able to come up with some idea of what the increase was, if any. Since we are only talking about a three month period (October to December of 1862) an increase of 20,000 deserters would have shocked the Army and been reflected in official correspondence and reports. Looking about the OR, I see no evidence of it.
In the December 1865 report of the Provost-Marshal-General recapping the Civiil War period, there is no mention of any particular problem in this period. He also notes that a minimum of 25% of the reported cases of "desertion" were not actually cases of desertion, due to confusion and mistakes. This often included men who fell out sick on the march or became casualties in combat, but who's fate was unknown to the command. Such men were reported as "missing" which automatically became "deserted" after a while. He says many voluntarily returned, but ended up in the "return of deserters" category as a result.
So if anyone is trying to claim that there was a short-term increase of 20,000 or so desertions as a result of the Emancipation Proclamation, they seem to have a major problem proving it.
The real increase in monthly desertions, BTW, comes in 1864, when it jumps from 4,647 in 1863 to 7,333 in 1864 before falling to 4,368 in 1865. The Provost-Marshal-General says most of that increase was in draftees and bounty men who deserted from the assembly point after reporting, or on the way from there to their assigned unit at the front, or who were drafted and simply never showed up.
Total desertions for the war were reported as 278,644 -- with the Provost-Marshal-General again saying that the number is very much on the high side because of inaccurate reporting from the field. Again, his belief was that at least 25% of this number is in error.
Oh, yeah-- from the time the Bureau was organized, they averaged 2,412 arrests for desertion/month.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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