State's Rights

[ole]

close to 10%, of all US field forces, acording to the fileds sytrength returns, but then you have to show why so many deserted at that time, the hisghest desertion incidence in the war in terms of numbers doing it, the common asumption, by Mcperson and others befopre him, was the EP.

Unionblue, citing Chandra Manning, has given alternative reasons for so many to have deserted at that time. Without denying that many deserted because of the Emancipation Proclamation, most cannot be substantiated.

Given the desertion rate of the regular army on the prewar frontier, the desertion rate of the wartime volunteer is not so surprising.

ole

[ole]

The Official Records substantiate these statements. General George McClellan wrote that "the States of the North are flooded with deserters and absentees. One corps of this army has 13,000 men present and 15,000 absent."(6) On 23 September 1862, General George Meade reported that over 8,000 men, including 250 officers, had deserted, noting that "this terrible and serious evil seems to pervade the whole body."(7) When General Hooker assumed command of the Army of the Potomac from General Ambrose Burnside, he found the number of deserters to be 2,922 commissioned officers and 81,964 non-commissioned officers and privates.(8) In his report to the Congressional Committee on the Conduct of the War, Hooker stated, "At the time the army was turned over to me, desertions were at the rate of about two hundred a day"(9) {snip}

In these substantiating statements, only those of Burnside and Hooker can be considered reflecting an effect of the Emancipation Proclamation. The statements show only that the Federals were having trouble with attendance at roll call.

ole

[cw1865]

I have serious issues with any study intended to determine the cause of desertion. The deserters simply aren't taking polls as they leave explaining their motivation.

Really to look at the question in reverse, why aren't we asking why such a large percentage of the Army of the Potomac remained in the field. Between Antietam, Fredericksburg, Gettysburg (victory but still many casualities), etc. frankly I'd be inclined to desert too!

[OpnDownfall]

I read somewhere (I am searching now) that the desertion rate of the US Army, from 1870 to 1900, was 50%. If that is even approximately true, what exactly does it prove?

[matthew mckeon]

It proves being in the 19th century army sucks.

The guys in blue and gray weren't pursuing a career, they were out to do something, which is why most of them stuck it out, even re-enlisting when it came time.

Famous quote from World War II: "We've got to beat the Germans in order to get the h-ll out of the army."

[5fish]

The 2nd amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


A line:"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State"

"A Free State"; We know the 2nd amendment gives the individual the right to self defense but does it give the states the right to defend themselves as well??

NRA has always boasted that the greatest defense of our democracy is an armed citizenry but an armed State achieve the same thing.

Our founding Fathers believed states' armed militias would keep the central government from becoming Tyrannical.

I argue that the 2nd amendment implies that States are free which means they have "free will"

It is a State right to defend itself against a central government that is being Tyrannical even to used arms to protect itself.

I believe the southern leaders should have invoke the second amendment declaring they were protecting themselves from a tyrannical central government.

The southern leaders were invoking their Constitutional right to self defense under the second amendment.


The acts of the southern leaders could not be consider Traitorous or Treasonous for they were following the Constitution desired will.

The argument that the south was fighting for states right would not have rung so hollow..

State are Free and have the right to self defense as outline in the 2nd amendment..

Friends of "STATE RIGHTS" lets rally around the second amendment for it could justify why the Civil War was fought for more then Slavery.... Rally friends Rally to the cause!!

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by 5fish

The 2nd amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


A line:"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State"

"A Free State"; We know the 2nd amendment gives the individual the right to self defense but does it give the states the right to defend themselves as well??

NRA has always boasted that the greatest defense of our democracy is an armed citizenry but an armed State achieve the same thing.

Our founding Fathers believed states' armed militias would keep the central government from becoming Tyrannical.

I argue that the 2nd amendment implies that States are free which means they have "free will"

It is a State right to defend itself against a central government that is being Tyrannical even to used arms to protect itself.

I believe the southern leaders should have invoke the second amendment declaring they were protecting themselves from a tyrannical central government.

The southern leaders were invoking their Constitutional right to self defense under the second amendment.


The acts of the southern leaders could not be consider Traitorous or Treasonous for they were following the Constitution desired will.

The argument that the south was fighting for states right would not have rung so hollow..

State are Free and have the right to self defense as outline in the 2nd amendment..

Friends of "STATE RIGHTS" lets rally around the second amendment for it could justify why the Civil War was fought for more then Slavery.... Rally friends Rally to the cause!!

Friend 5Fish, I have at last assimilated you into our Borg Collective!

Wherefore, Pledge, renounce your Collectivism, in all its forms, and step forward, into the light.

We welcome you to our Procession!

Beowulf

First Council - Prelate
Brother and Fellow-Keeper of the Star-Crossed Banner===---

[unionblue]

Hanny,

No, I do not have to show why so many deserted at that time. An assumption has been made that 20,000 Union soldiers deserted because of the Emancipation Proclamation. The burden of proof rests on the person who made this assumption.

I have seen no evidence that makes this assumption a historical fact. Even your post above makes the following statement.

"...the common assumption..."

Herein lies my problem. Assumptions.

Again, it reminds me of a quote made by a famous author.

Belief does not make truth.
Evidence makes truth.
And belief does not make evidence.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[5fish]

[quote=Beowulf;83225]

Friend 5Fish, I have at last assimilated you into our Borg Collective!

The Borg are the AdSense of socialism

We welcome you to our Procession

!

Not so fast, I am trying to find a philosophical argument that could have justified the South's behavior. The arguments they chose were poor and none of it was based on our Constitution or our Founding Fathers beliefs. No wonder the Southern cause was doomed!!

Beowulf

First Council - Prelate
Brother and Fellow-Keeper of the Star-Crossed Banner===---

I have no clue what this is but what the heck, do I get free shirts!!

Is there free food at our get together too!! This maybe fun..

[Beowulf]

[quote=5fish;83239]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

The Borg are the AdSense of socialism

!

Not so fast, I am trying to find a philosophical argument that could have justified the South's behavior. The arguments they chose were poor and none of it was based on our Constitution or our Founding Fathers beliefs. No wonder the Southern cause was doomed!!




I have no clue what this is but what the heck, do I get free shirts!!

Is there free food at our get together too!! This maybe fun..

If I may speak frankly, here, then...

I don't in truth think the Confederacy of the South would have ended up any better than the Founding father's 'united states of America' did.

We still had Cotton Whig Liberals, like Stephens, who was willing to make us all look bad with his racist views, and his innate collectivism would have probably gotten in the way of Davis' compensated emancipation plans... The slaves were emancipated, after their
training programs were successfully completed, but many sued to return to their masters (like Avenel House) because they were better off there, and the day to day strain of existence did not bother them on the plantations... Biblical bondage, known as "Pentateuch Slavery', was accepted by the Confederacy, even though the abolitionists roared over it for many years, until these willing slaves eventually died out. While following the Biblical admonition, these willing slaves did not have to have their ears bored through with an awl, signifying permanent servitude. Depending upon what contracts they had signed with their masters, they could leave according to those time lines, and resign their commissions accordingly.

(They were called 'Robert Slaves', after a former Avenel Slave who was freed by Massa Burwell before the Civil War... and who willingly sold himself back into slavery under another master for the benefits of being a slave, and to travel abroad in Europe with his chosen master... (True Dat!)).


The upside would have been no Yankees, but dang it! How long does it take a whole mess of them to move down here, and set up shoppe? The South would not have been forward enough to prevent such metastasizing of these peoples! They would have initially had no reason to stop them... And how innocent does
wanting to live in a place start out to be, until the VOTE gets calculated?

So, I can see the SCV's of today, wandering about, lamenting their struggles to gain freedom from these collectivist hordes, and having to stand by and watch as the Confederate flag gets accused of a too-costly war against the North for its freedom, when all the North has to do was send its socialists South, after the war, and null and void our victories at Gettysburg, and the Monocacy, which effectively gained us Lincoln's surrender in 1864.

General Longstreet, of course, being Grant's brother-in-law had to move North after the war, where he and Dan Sickles walked each other from bar to bar in the evenings, going over the good old days...

Jubal Early became governor of Virginia, but never achieved the presidency of the Confederacy, because he was at heart a Liberal (witness his thefts at Chambersburg and in Maryland!) and this became apparent when the war ended.

Lee refused to be president, and Davis stayed until the threat of Stephens being president was comfortably passed.

Lynchburg, Tennessee, is still a dry county, even though Jack Daniels is served in 138 countries around the world!

During the First World War, (just after Northern president Woodrow Wilson told Kaiser Bill, "If I had that army, I could whip the world") the South joined the North in a pact and launched a Southern version of the Fokker DR1, called the Triple Yell, and one of these is said to have brought down the Red Baron, Manfred Von Richtofen.

Due to Southern intervention and negotiations in the peace process after Germany's surrender, the terms were substantially lessened against Germany, and when a former corporal named Adolph Hitler in Munich tried to get involved in the Beer Hall Putsch, he was shot dead by the townspeople who had had enough of war and were not having to sell their daughters in the streets to get food...

There was no World War II. The Japanese had thought long and hard about recovering Samurai glory, but in the end, the plan was leaked, and the people never got behind the idea.

So the Confederacy soldiered along, and did that which was as good as it could in the sight of the Lord, but eventually, the Book of Revelations takes over, and if you read it, you know what happens!

Yes, there will be free t-shirts and food. Name me one successful event that doesn't!

Beowulf