Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
It was moved for review by the mod gods due to some flaming, particularly editing other peoples posts in replies. There may have been some bypassing the language filter as well. I don't know it all, I received a PM complaint and moved it to the Mod forum for the mod gods to review & decide.
Battalion, I'm biased and I admit it. Biased to the truth in history. Ami & Mike, aka the mod gods, are quite unbiased and quite a bit fairer than many, they put up w/ a lot of crap to keep this board active and free. Charges of bias on their part are bald faced lies and nothing more. You know this, yet you continually insinuate and outright claim otherwise... yet oddly you are still allowed to post. Funny that eh?
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Somehow, I would picture Beowulf to have been a Thespian or more likely as one of the Theban hostagess, who surrendered at Thermopylae (although, if there is really justice in this world, I see him as being one of the Helots forced to fight and die with with their Spartan Masters, to no good purpose)
And I see you as selling out to Xerxes, the Great Lincoln, who promises you wealth beyond your wildest imaginations if only you will fall down and worship him!
(Now, where have I heard THAT before??????)
Beowulf
And by the way, is ANY OF YOU gonna get around to reading this thing I set up????
Or does it all just terrify the absolute reason for your being?????
Somehow, I would picture Beowulf to have been a Thespian or more likely as one of the Theban hostagess, who surrendered at Thermopylae (although, if there is really justice in this world, I see him as being one of the Helots forced to fight and die with with their Spartan Masters, to no good purpose)
Huh?
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__________________ -
"It was a very peculiar time." - Franklin D. Cossitt
Ancestors in USA Army: 6th IA Inf, 11th IL Cav, 1st AL Cav; 122nd NY Inf; 6th MI Cav; 35th MA Inf; 100th IL Inf; 1st CO Inf/Cav; 22nd IN Inf
Somehow, I would picture Beowulf to have been a Thespian or more likely as one of the Theban hostagess, who surrendered at Thermopylae (although, if there is really justice in this world, I see him as being one of the Helots forced to fight and die with with their Spartan Masters, to no good purpose)
Forced to fight and die with their Spartan masters... Hmmm.
Rather like the North saying to the black man, you will fight with us, for your freedom... and in contrast to the Southern army saying, you may if we need you in this regard, but this is not your fight otherwise???
I just wondered about that comparison you made. Thank you for it. I may use it somwhere at some point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpnDownfall Somehow, I would picture Beowulf to have been a Thespian or more likely as one of the Theban hostagess, who surrendered at Thermopylae (although, if there is really justice in this world, I see him as being one of the Helots forced to fight and die with with their Spartan Masters, to no good purpose)
Forced to fight and die with their Spartan masters... Hmmm.
he do doubt is refering to the book ( by Hanson) that equates sparta, the CSA and Nazi germany as all being large slave states who fought and lost, because of the moral problem slavery instills in society, ie they feel less moraly able to fight because they are slave owners and users.
Otoh, he might just be making a clumsy helot refernce without understanding helots served, gained freedom and become a citizen with rights in spartan society, while as state slaves kept half of all they produced, could marry at will, and had rights no other greek slaves had, which was what those who went with Leonadiss to the Hot gates were and died to a man in service as free citizen soldiers of sparta did, not becauase they were did so against there will as laves, but as free citizens of sparat, just a clumsy not knowing what he was refering to comment or that greek society itself required slaves to function and so on, and helots were miles better off than they,just a clumsy expresion, because history is not what he is good at.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
he do doubt is refering to the book ( by Hanson) that equates sparta, the CSA and Nazi germany as all being large slave states who fought and lost, because of the moral problem slavery instills in society, ie they feel less moraly able to fight because they are slave owners and users.
Otoh, he might just be making a clumsy helot refernce without understanding helots served, gained freedom and become a citizen with rights in spartan society, while as state slaves kept half of all they produced, could marry at will, and had rights no other greek slaves had, which was what those who went with Leonadiss to the Hot gates were and died to a man in service as free citizen soldiers of sparta did, not becauase they were did so against there will as laves, but as free citizens of sparat, just a clumsy not knowing what he was refering to comment or that greek society itself required slaves to function and so on, and helots were miles better off than they,just a clumsy expresion, because history is not what he is good at.
You constantly equate slavery as just and many people would be better off as slaves. Yes, in many slave based societies they are allowed to marry, taught valuable, skills, and can achieve freedom but it does not make it right. If it was a good and just system and promoted the general welfare of societies then it would still be around but it is not a around today.
Slave base societies have been completely discredited both culturally and economically.
I believe the helots did not go back to their slave masters(Spartans) once free by the Thebans. Hanny explain they self on your slave love.
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"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
You constantly equate slavery as just and many people would be better off as slaves. Yes, in many slave based societies they are allowed to marry, taught valuable, skills, and can achieve freedom but it does not make it right. If it was a good and just system and promoted the general welfare of societies then it would still be around but it is not a around today.
Slave base societies have been completely discredited both culturally and economically.
I believe the helots did not go back to their slave masters(Spartans) once free by the Thebans. Hanny explain they self on your slave love.
Hey, 5Fish! What's your take on the Wage Slavery of Employment today?
We do get to pick our plantations (or rather, they pick us!)
these days, but while the beatings have ended, physically, the physically-demanding need to work three jobs to raise kids is very like the sweat shoppes of olde!
And employment today being worse than slavery with regard to the fact it pays NO WHERE NEAR WHAT ANYONE IS ACTUALLY WORTH... nor do most jobs provide any sort of benefits below a certain level...
What class of SLAVE, high or low, on the old Grecian scale, would you put the American Wage Slaves of today?
he do doubt is refering to the book ( by Hanson) that equates sparta, the CSA and Nazi germany as all being large slave states who fought and lost, because of the moral problem slavery instills in society, ie they feel less moraly able to fight because they are slave owners and users.
Otoh, he might just be making a clumsy helot refernce without understanding helots served, gained freedom and become a citizen with rights in spartan society, while as state slaves kept half of all they produced, could marry at will, and had rights no other greek slaves had, which was what those who went with Leonadiss to the Hot gates were and died to a man in service as free citizen soldiers of sparta did, not becauase they were did so against there will as laves, but as free citizens of sparat, just a clumsy not knowing what he was refering to comment or that greek society itself required slaves to function and so on, and helots were miles better off than they,just a clumsy expresion, because history is not what he is good at.
(I feel like I hear John Malkovich talking): "You have to understand what is going on here... Slavery is all the Yankee has; he has no other reason for being. If the 13th Amendment had not come about as a result of their unholy union with the Abolitionists, the Northern Capitalists would be seen as the barbarians they are, and have always been.
So every thing they utter must be wrapped in that word.
In a twist of fate, The Yankee North, who had brought them over here, was then forced to deal with them after
they were freed. And while great attempts have been made to scoop up and prop up the remains of the Old South upon which to blame the Continued Racism which followed, the Liberal Scalawag Southern puppet governments were also an invention of the North, and so the Racism, North and South, falls upon the Old Federals, once again. The Cotton Whigs Slavers of the South that Lincoln wished to once again mate with the Conscience Whigs of the North were once again running things. And
with all the White Supremacy of their former leader, Alexander Hamilton Stephens, (who was Jefferson Davis's and all good Conservative Southerners' mortal enemy), they continued the great racist traditions of the Scalawag Liberals... who actually, at the time of the war, wanted the Union to remain and railed against the Confederacy for threatening their precious Slave Property by its very 'Secessionist' existence during the war... They were Unionists!
(Which, to my mind, explains all that blather about SLAVERY every six inches in the Ordinances of Secession...
to appease these idiotic Southern Cotton Whig Unionist Clowns, just as the Yankee North was trying to woo the Abolitionists!).
But SLAVERY is their worship word. Their Mantra. Their Secular Humanist Transcendentalist Meditation Word!
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