Civil War gave us Apartheid!

[OpnDownfall]

Again, we have the mess we have because, Reconstruction was Not followed through with. The harm came not because of Reconstruction, but because it was aborted.

[jpeter]

Fish - theres a difference between racial equality and institutional slavery.

No white person in Congress could have gotten elected to office in 1865 by advocating racial equality. Racial equality and the policies of white supremacy were inherent in degrees by nearly all of the American public and could be found even in the writings of abolitionists. This nation would have to struggle with the issue for several more decades - and is still a struggle. Ask any black person who has tried to hail a cab in NYC lately.

Racial equality is a social conflict. Institutional slavery is both a social construct and an economic system. That economic system of forced labor had to be stopped. It could NOT continue.

[matthew mckeon]

While better than slavery, the racism, backed by decisions like Plessy v. Ferguson, overt racial segregation in the South, sundown towns and redlining in the North, has to be the biggest failure in US History.

[OpnDownfall]

Still, it is difficult to blame it on the CW itself.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by jpeter

Fish - theres a difference between racial equality and institutional slavery.

No white person in Congress could have gotten elected to office in 1865 by advocating racial equality. Racial equality and the policies of white supremacy were inherent in degrees by nearly all of the American public and could be found even in the writings of abolitionists. This nation would have to struggle with the issue for several more decades - and is still a struggle. Ask any black person who has tried to hail a cab in NYC lately.

Racial equality is a social conflict. Institutional slavery is both a social construct and an economic system. That economic system of forced labor had to be stopped. It could NOT continue.

Oh, let's skip to WWII and see the Federal government and a segregated armed forces! Surely, we can somehow blame that on the Conservative South!

Surely, the grandsons of Confederate veterans, in general and the South, in particular, are somehow to blame!

They were again allowed to vote by then! Somehow they are at fault, here...

Come on, guys!

Don't let up now!

Beowulf

[gary]

Originally Posted by 5fish

I argue:

Did the civil war achieve its lofty goal of ending slavery and bringing freedom to black Americans?

The civil war did not end slavery as to change it to Apartheid.

The slaves were certainly emancipated after the war but to say that the Civil War brought about apartheid is inaccurate. I contend that the blacks who lived in the North were, for the most part, isolated in their own little communities. Mixed race neighborhoods were not in vogue during the 19th Century and restrictive convenants on the transfer of property was legal back then... and this was before the Civil War. I'll ask a scholar in my area for more examples.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by 5fish

I argue:

Did the civil war achieve its lofty goal of ending slavery and bringing freedom to black Americans?


Like WWI did not achieve its lofty goal of ending war, our civil war failed at achieving true freedom for black Americans. By 1879, Black Americans were being regulated into being second class citizens, living in an "separate but equal" world being enforced by "Jim Crow laws".

Was it all in vain the sacrifices 600,000 souls lost in our civil war? Their sacrifice along with black Americans sold out to embittered southern white interest to preserve harmony within the union.

The civil war did not end slavery as to change it to Apartheid.

Okay. Fine. Let's see it YOUR WAY, for just a moment!

Let's see it from this Northern slant:

You claim that the North, after years of bending over backwards to accommodate the degenerate South, and
their racial hatreds (I cannot believe I am typing this!), finally gave up on the South, and forced them to free their slaves at bayonet point!

And you did it all to preserve the nation! How gloriously NOBLE of you!


Okay. If we accept this premise, then you have to accept the responsibility for your actions in this, as well.

The North was just as guilty of slavery, Jim Crow, or anything else before and after the war.

Before the war, the North were the slave traders.

After the war, they were the ruling empire of the Federal government. The 14th amendment and other laws were placed into practice to solidify this power, and it was so.

The Federal government was now superior to the states.

No Southerners, either controlled by Liberal puppet governments or centrist 'Conservative' platforms
(today known as Republicans) could have done anything
without Federal approval.

Thus, any and all implied 'racism', coming from the destruction of the institution of slavery, is the fault of the conquerors from the 'victory' over slavery in 1865.

The Legacy of the Republican Liberals:

Eight of the next nine presidents after Lincoln, were all high ranking yankees in the civil war. (save for Grover Cleveland, twice, a Conservative who hired someone to be in the yankee army in his place). All of them were Liberals.

When the so-called Democrats came back into power, they were no longer Southern block Conservative Democrats, but (around Woodrow Wilson), became Liberal Democrats.

These collectivists have ruled, as a force, since Grant!

Only briefly (Eisenhower, and Reagan, most notably) have any Confederate-esque minded presidents come to power... Not any real Conservatives, at all; only Liberals and Centrists have been elected.

So, where again, does the problem with racism lie? With the party which is supposed to be helping these people?


Seems to me, there should be no complaints at all since 1865! After all, the Confederacy was no more! The Union was of one mind! And the true Conservative party had been all but annihilated off the face of the earth!

So, there should be no complaints, any longer! At least, not with the "Unionists"!


After running things for 150 years, the Conquerors of Appomattox should have a pretty good handle on things, yes?


Beowulf

[ole]

The whirling Dervish is back.

ole

[5fish]

Originally Posted by gary

The slaves were certainly emancipated after the war but to say that the Civil War brought about apartheid is inaccurate. I contend that the blacks who lived in the North were, for the most part, isolated in their own little communities. Mixed race neighborhoods were not in vogue during the 19th Century and restrictive convenants on the transfer of property was legal back then... and this was before the Civil War. I'll ask a scholar in my area for more examples.

Gary,

The civil war may have emancipated the slaves from one horror but it issued in a new horror of segregation and Apartheid. These new horrors were just as evil as the last for oppression is always evil.

Will call "Segregation and Apartheid" slavery lite.

I do not understand why people want to bring up that white and black American did not live together until the end of the 20th century. There are many reasons why and most are related to racism.

Reconstruction period was a failure for one reason the embittered southern whites. They fought every policy to improve the X-slaves integration into American society.

If you read about Reconstruction the white southerns were victims of northern oppressors. Think of Reconstruction you think Radical republicans, Carpetbaggers and so fourth. If you look deeper you see the embittered southern whites biggest true gripe is with the treatment of X-slaves and intriguing them into American society.

[jpeter]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Oh, let's skip to WWII and see the Federal government and a segregated armed forces! Surely, we can somehow blame that on the Conservative South!

I'm not following you.

I said Institutional slavery was an economic product defended by the south prior to the CW.

I never said segregation and racism was the "fault" of anything or anybody. In fact, I said it was inherent in the national mind-set and it has taken well over 100 years to grow to the point of national open discussion.