Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Don't know about the rest of you, but I lost interest somewhere around "infallibility" and "inerrant" word.
I forget who is on the "God had nothing to do with it" side, or who, besides Henry, is on which side of the sin line. However, Henry is quite correct in that historians do generally disregard considering what role, if any, religion played in the buildup to and the actions during that unfortunate conflict.
I think I'll take a nap now.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
You have once again presented a chewy mouthful. You do have a way of cutting to the chase. Thanks.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
"Everyone is biased one way or another, everyone has their opinion."
True. I just wish the author of the article you presented had enough courage and honesty to admit that's exactly what he was doing, presenting his OPINION instead of presenting his twisted tale as historical fact.
Quote:
"Isn't Lincoln's address biased in favor of how he saw the situation? Especially since it is a political speech designed to curry favor for his cause?"
Perhaps you should have added the words to the above, IN YOUR OPINION.
Myself I see as Lincoln making clear the fact that both sides, North and South invoked God to support their side of the war, but God had his own plans. I also see where he makes clear that the evil of slavery was the cause of the war and that the entire nation was being made to suffer for that evil. What part of that was not true? Biased? Simple statements of fact that he would have better off not saying as a politician. How easy it must be from up here in the 21st century to pass judgement on a man faced with such a terrible war.
Quote:
"As far as God having very little to do with it:..."
I suppose I could exchange Bible quotes with you for the rest of this reply, it would be pretty easy as I have my own Bible, but I'm not going to. As for you wanting to take this thread in a different direction, I can understand that. It's not pleasent to talk about the real cause of the war, slavery, and that the South at the time which considered it supported by the Bible, blessed by God, a cherished institution, good for both the slave and the master, and the foundation of white freedom and civilization.
God can be invoked to support almost anything, from genocide to rape, to murder and torture, if such is put forth loud enough and often enough. And if men can be made to believe it's God that told them so.
God had very little to do with it.
Men called the shots when it came to enslaving other men. Men decided to rebell against their government and break up a nation at peace over the issue of slavery. And men decided to steal the property of the nation and then fire upon the men charged by the nation to do their duty.
If God was in there somewhere during all this willful evil, it was as a smoke-screen or a band-aid on the conscience of the men committing such acts.
This is the direction in which I was headed, just to make it very clear to you.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Myself I see as Lincoln making clear the fact that both sides, North and South invoked God to support their side of the war, but God had his own plans. I also see where he makes clear that the evil of slavery was the cause of the war and that the entire nation was being made to suffer for that evil. What part of that was not true?
Lincoln assuaging a guilty conscience...by consigning the war to God's Will.
Other nations had more severe forms of slavery and had no wars where 600,000 died.
~~~
The War -God's judgement for the evil of slavery?
* 100,000-200,000 "liberated" slaves die from starvation and disease in Federally operated Contraband Camps.
Strange that slaves would have to die for the evil of slavery.
* Irish and German emigrants serve in large numbers for Northern armies...and die in large numbers.
Strange that emigrants from Europe (that had nothing to do with American slavery) would have to die for the evil of slavery.
* The Rich (both North and South) who profited from slavery could buy their way out of war...leaving the poorer classes to fight and die in it.
Strange that the poorer classes would have to die for the evil of slavery...and those that most profited from slavery would live.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Lincoln assuaging a guilty conscience...by consigning the war to God's Will.
Other nations had more severe forms of slavery and had no wars where 600,000 died.
Not in 1860. England had outlawed slavery in 1833. Most of Europe had done so as well. Only Brazil and some Carribean Islands had institutionalized slavery in 1860.
Even Brazil found a way to end slavery peacefully... because, Unlike the southern states, the parties agreed to it.
Quote:
The War -God's judgement for the evil of slavery?
* 100,000-200,000 "liberated" slaves die from starvation and disease in Federally operated Contraband Camps.
Strange that slaves would have to die for the evil of slavery.
Therefore we should have continued institutionalized slavery???
What precisely are you justifying here?
Quote:
* Irish and German emigrants serve in large numbers for Northern armies...and die in large numbers.
Strange that emigrants from Europe (that had nothing to do with American slavery) would have to die for the evil of slavery.
* The Rich (both North and South) who profited from slavery could buy their way out of war...leaving the poorer classes to fight and die in it.
Strange that the poorer classes would have to die for the evil of slavery...and those that most profited from slavery would live.
Then the southern states should have ridded themselves of institutionalized slavery it instead of dying to protect it.
I was born in the south and have lived here 52 of my 55 years. I have yet find any redeeming value in institutionalized slavery.
Scroll down a bit and find the 1791 Haitian Revolution. It began with the revolt of enslaved Africans in the northern province, Aug 22. An estimated 350,000 people died in this revolution before Haiti was declared a free republic on January 1, 1804.
No, it's not 600,000 but it can't be considered "no war" either.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Not in 1860. England had outlawed slavery in 1833. Most of Europe had done so as well. Only Brazil and some Carribean Islands had institutionalized slavery in 1860.
Even Brazil found a way to end slavery peacefully... because, Unlike the southern states, the parties agreed to it.
Therefore we should have continued institutionalized slavery???
What precisely are you justifying here?
Then the southern states should have ridded themselves of institutionalized slavery it instead of dying to protect it.
I was born in the south and have lived here 52 of my 55 years. I have yet find any redeeming value in institutionalized slavery.
I believe you misunderstand my post.
Neither Slavery...nor the American Civil War was God's Will.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Neither slavery...nor the American Civil War was God's will.
This is a first for me.
I agree completely with your above statement.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
just because its his punishment doesn't mean it is his will. his will would have been for us to never do anything wrong in the first place. Since we have, and do, he will and has made us pay for it. The Civil War was no exception.
__________________ "In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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