Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Sovereignty (Black's Law Dictionary)- "...to make laws, to execute and apply them, to impose and collect taxes and levy contributions, to make war or peace, to form treaties of alliance or of commerce with foreign nations..."
The CSA exercised all of these powers.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Sovereignty (Black's Law Dictionary)- "...to make laws, to execute and apply them, to impose and collect taxes and levy contributions, to make war or peace, to form treaties of alliance or of commerce with foreign nations..."
The CSA exercised all of these powers.
More completely: "The power to do everything in a state without accountability, - to make laws, to execute and to apply them, to impose and collect taxes and levy contributions, to make war or peace, to form treaties of alliance or of commerce with foreign nations, and the like." Justice Story
But so what? I'll gladly concede that this is what the Fire-Eaters and Confederates wanted to have. What makes you think they actually had them?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
More completely: "The power to do everything in a state without accountability, - to make laws, to execute and to apply them, to impose and collect taxes and levy contributions, to make war or peace, to form treaties of alliance or of commerce with foreign nations, and the like." Justice Story
But so what? I'll gladly concede that this is what the Fire-Eaters and Confederates wanted to have. What makes you think they actually had them?
Tim
"Wanted to have" (?)
The CSA didall that is described in that definition.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
The CSA didall that is described in that definition.
And arguably, David Kouresh did all that at his compound in Waco. Did that make him sovereign?
The Columbian drug lords do all these things. Are they sovereign?
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
The CSA didall that is described in that definition.
Yup, and virtually all of those powers were denied to them under the constitution. Are you conceding that they did not retain their sovereignty under the constitution since it explicitly forbid them from doing those things?
__________________ "A dissolution of the Union for the cause of slavery would be followed by a servile war in the slave-holding States, combined with a war between the two severed portions of the Union.It seems to me that its result might be the extirpation of slavery from this whole continent; and, calamitous and desolating as this course of events in its progress must be, so glorious would be its final issue, that, as God shall judge me, I dare not say that it is not to be desired." [John Quincy Adams]
The CSA didall that is described in that definition.
So? Criminals do lots of things they should not. So do insurrectionists, rebels, and revolutionaries.
For example, counterfeiters print or coin money, although they do not have the power to do so ... oh, wait, the state of Louisiana and the Confederate States of America did produce counterfeit US coins in 1861, using the US Mint in New Orleans they had seized illegally and the $500,000 in bullion they had stolen there. Do you somehow think this illegal act proves they were "sovereign"? Do you somehow think all the counterfeiters we have in US jails are "sovereign"?
This is the type of logic your argument is based on.
Tim
P.S.: the Louisiana authorities were pretty ticked when some quick thinking Federal employee diverted a shipment of gold and silver bullion coming from the West to New Orleans after the Mint was seized. Pretty comical, really, the thief getting upset because the victim took measures to thwart his planned next theft.
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
So? Criminals do lots of things they should not. So do insurrectionists, rebels, and revolutionaries.
So you are saying the Confederates were revolutionaries and had the 'right of revolution?'
Quote:
For example, counterfeiters print or coin money, although they do not have the power to do so ... oh, wait, the state of Louisiana and the Confederate States of America did produce counterfeit US coins in 1861, using the US Mint in New Orleans they had seized illegally and the $500,000 in bullion they had stolen there. Do you somehow think this illegal act proves they were "sovereign"? Do you somehow think all the counterfeiters we have in US jails are "sovereign"?
So? The Feds produced counterfeit Confederate notes.
Quote:
This is the type of logic your argument is based on.
Tim
My logic is clear- the Confederates exercised the powers of a sovereign nation. Whether the Yankee of 1861 (or 2008) likes it or not doesn't really matter.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
So you are saying the Confederates were revolutionaries and had the 'right of revolution?'
As I have repeatedly told you over the years, they said they were not. They said they were exercising a highly debatable legal "right of secession" which might or might not exist in 1860.
Personally, I think they were exercising the "natural right of revolution" -- which makes them rebels against the United States under the law unless they win. They lost, which means they never were a "sovereign nation".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
So? The Feds produced counterfeit Confederate notes.
Since the Confederacy never did establish it was a "sovereign nation", it really doesn't matter. Note instead that Louisiana and the Confederacy were engaging in their couterfeiting and theft before the war began: clearly a hostile and aggressive act by thieves and rebels. In fact, they were seizing Federal property before Louisiana even seceded -- clear violation of their duty and personal oath in all cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
My logic is clear- the Confederates exercised the powers of a sovereign nation. Whether the Yankee of 1861 (or 2008) likes it or not doesn't really matter.
Battalion, "exercising" them doesn't make a "sovereign nation", any more than driving a police car would make you a policeman if you stole it.
The Confederacy chose to submit all the issues involved to the verdict of war. They deliberately avoided several legal and peaceful means they might have easily tried instead. When you chose revolution and war, you have chosen to abide by the de facto result of the war. The South lost. As Robert E. Lee said after the war, that settled the matter.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Sovereignty (Black's Law Dictionary)- "...to make laws, to execute and apply them, to impose and collect taxes and levy contributions, to make war or peace, to form treaties of alliance or of commerce with foreign nations..."
The CSA exercised all of these powers.
With what foreign nation did they make a treaty of alliance or commerce?
I knew they bought some boats and other stuff, but wasn't aware of any treaty. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, though.
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