Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Let's not confuse Southern w/ Confederate. There was & is an enormous difference. Secession was anything but unanimous w/ between 60-70% of the population siding w/ the US.
Much like the Revolution the majority wasn't for it. They just kept on keeping on.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Let's not confuse Southern w/ Confederate. There was & is an enormous difference. Secession was anything but unanimous w/ between 60-70% of the population siding w/ the US.
Much like the Revolution the majority wasn't for it. They just kept on keeping on.
Amen. As a Texan, I am offended when those like battalion who speak of "we Southerners" as everyone south of the Mason/Dixon line agreed with him. I for one am happy to live in a united Union.
That is part of the problem of secession. When the secession of the various states was accepted on a majority vote, it tore away huge numbers who had no desire to leave the Union. Thus West Virginia.
The various arguments against the unilateral right of secession advanced here have been masterful and overwhelming. I have further looked at it on a contractual basis. One party to a contract cannot unilateral decide to withdraw therefrom...
As to the Southern view of secession as treason prior to thier own secession, to mis-quote Benjamin Franklin in the musical 1776, "Secession is legal in the first person, 'our secession.' It is only in the third person, 'their secession' that it is illegal..."
Let's not confuse Southern w/ Confederate. There was & is an enormous difference. Secession was anything but unanimous w/ between 60-70% of the population siding w/ the US.
Please give us a detailed rundown on those numbers.
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True. Secession wasn't unanimous...but it didn't follow that those opposing secession agreed with the actions of the Federal gov't.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
True. Secession wasn't unanimous...but it didn't follow that those opposing secession agreed with the actions of the Federal gov't.
No one is alleging that those who opposed secession were in complete agreement with the Federal Government. Shoot, I'm not in agreement with the current Federal government in a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that I seceed, any more than when I disagree with my wife I get a divorce or when I disagree with my Church I leave start my own.
The secessionists were perfectly happy to go along with the Federal Government as long as they were getting their way, but once it appeared that they had lost their disproportionate power in the government, they decided to take their ball and go home.
Y'know, timewalker, this could be the start of a real friendship. I have, this very moment, changed my opinion of Texans.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
No one is alleging that those who opposed secession were in complete agreement with the Federal Government. Shoot, I'm not in agreement with the current Federal government in a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that I seceed...
But the Federal government of the 1860s came to burn down homes and cities and would put those in jail (men, women and children) even suspected of favoring or aiding secession.
I don't believe that compares with your disagreements with the current government.
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To the Wall...
"...If the two sections can no longer live together, they can no longer live apart in quiet till it is determined which is master. No two civilizations ever did, or can, come into contact as the North and South threaten to do, without a trial of strength, in which the weaker goes to the wall...
...We must remain masters of the occasion, and the dominant Power on this continent..."
New York Times, 9 April 1861
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
If the two sections can no longer live together, they can no longer live apart in quiet till it is determined which is master. No two civilizations ever did, or can, come into contact as the North and South threaten to do, without a trial of strength, in which the weaker goes to the wall...
...We must remain masters of the occasion, and the dominant Power on this continent..."
And you take exception to that statement? We have learned that reason must prevail, and that a master is inconsequential. But we've also learned that two different civilizations cannot coexist on the same ground. The house divided, etc.
We must hang together, gentlemen, or most assuredly, we will all hang separately.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
But the Federal government of the 1860s came to burn down homes and cities and would put those in jail (men, women and children) even suspected of favoring or aiding secession.
I don't believe that compares with your disagreements with the current government.
Any of those acts came after the secessionists siezed federal arsenals, chased out Federal troops, and actually attacked Federal ships and fortifications.
Which only proves my point. If I disagree with the Federal government, I do not get together with a group of like minded friends and attack Fort Hood to take over the arsenal. If I did, I would be roundly condemned and locked up. And if I was using my house as a bastion from which to attack the government, I would expect that my house would not be long standing.
Indeed, we have the "Republic of Texas" nutbars here who try to do just that and have decreed, on their own, that Texas is not a part of the Union and even though I did not vote for them, they are "my government."
Please give us a detailed rundown on those numbers.
*
True. Secession wasn't unanimous...but it didn't follow that those opposing secession agreed with the actions of the Federal gov't.
The numbers have been given before... once actually by you I believe. Suffice it to say something like well over 200,000 southerners fought for the US in it's various armed forces. Enormous swaths of the CS remained loyal to the US forcing CS forces to be defacto occupation forces. Where? West Virginia, East TN, North Alabama, North Georgia, Western NC, West TX, areas of Mississippi, Louisina etc. It isn't anything new, so don't pretend like you've not seen it before. It also proves they didn't agree w/ either the CS govt or it's Secession from the US.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
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