Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Nope, just the truth. You have a long record here, on many topics, of deliberately distorting quotes from historical figures. This has been often demonstrated, by me and by others. The first one I recall, just after I joined this Forum, was the false position you tried to put over about Robert E. Lee's position on secession. You are doing the same thing with your attempt to misrepresent Sir Robert Phillimore's work.
I'll gladly show it on the Phillimore extracts you are distorting if you want. All you have to do is to demonstrate you are a fair man by describing your qualifications and background for us. After all, you questioned mine and I described them for you -- then I asked you, and we still have this resounding silence from you. How about it? Willing to stand up and be counted? Or do you really want to keep damaging your credibility like this?
It doesn't matter a bit what your background actually is: to be fair, you should describe it, good or bad. But if you are unwilling to, you make yourself a subject of derision, open to the accusation you have something to conceal, trying to put forth a false front. I urge you to just stop the evasion and make a clear statement of your background.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
BTW, if you search through a post-Civil War edition of the Right Honorable Sir Robert Joseph Phillimore's work (i.e., not the 1855 one), you'll find that he characterized the United States as the legitimate government and the Confederate States as the insurrectionist government.
Tim
Wow....are you sure you are looking at a book by Phillimore?
I've searched through the 1879 edition and didn't find anything even remotely resembling what you describe.
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Appointments of diplomats and consular officials have to be approved by Congress. Do they not?
No, they do not. You will note that Benjamin says in his 1862 report to the Confederate Congress (the one you are quoting from) that this is the case, and that even the formality of applying for an exequatur is not required, but is more a matter of custom and tradition. Even when they do, the application is made to the Executive, not to the Legislative, branch of government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Therefore I would expect to see some mentioned in the Congressional Record.
Well, now you know better. Unless something unusual occurs, or the mention is in a report to Congress, you won't find it there.
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Originally Posted by Battalion
Where have I made this claim?
See Virtual Recognition in Phillimore.
See answer to previous question.
It does not appear Saxe-Coburg and Gotha would qualify for Virtual Recognition as Phillimore describes it. No one else recognized the Confederacy -- certainly the Papal States did not.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Why do you keep avoiding answering trice's question concerning your background? Why is it alright to demand such of trice and yet not reply about your own?
Seems like you are willing to set high standards for those who question your sources and conclusions and yet you seem unwilling to apply such standards to yourself.
It really limits your credibility.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Wow....are you sure you are looking at a book by Phillimore?
Absolutely. You should stop this silly practice of challenging everything when you want to avoid the facts.
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Originally Posted by Battalion
I've searched through the 1879 edition and didn't find anything even remotely resembling what you describe.
I haven't looked at the 1879 publishing, probably of the 2nd (1871) edition. I have looked at the 1882 and 1885 printings of the 3rd edition.
Phillimore was commenting on specific cases that arose out of the actions of a Confederate agents in Britain during the war. They thus might not have been decided in time to be included in the 2nd edition.
In one of them, the finding of the British court was that, upon the suppression of a rebellion, the restored legitimate Government is entitled, as of right, to all moneys, goods, and treasure which were public property of the Government at the time of the outbreak, such right being in no way affected by the wrongful seizure of the property by the usurping Government. And yes, indeed, he does describe the US government as the legitimate government that is the successor to the insurrectionist government (the Confederate government) for property rights after the rebellion is surpressed.
Among other things, this means that Judge Phillimore would have been of the opinion that -- after winning the Civil War -- the United States government was entitled, as of right, to Fort Sumter and all the other property the secessionists seized in 1860-61. That is, of course, only the opinion of one of the most distinguished International Law jurists of the nineteenth century, with a whole raft of prestigeous appointments to his credit.
That is absolutely correct and accurate. It is very close to a word-for-word recounting of Phillimore's written work.
Not sure where you are trying to go here. Judge Phillimore was a man known for his great knowledge and accuracy on the law. Are you really trying to say he was biased? I myself merely think he was an honest and fair man -- which was why he saw the Confederate government as an insurrectionist one.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Thanks. I was already at these sites a month or so back.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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