Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
"Under the auspices of the letter of Pio Nono [Pope Pius IX] to the President, formidable demonstrations have been made in Ireland against the efforts of Lincoln and Co. to secure additional immigrants from that portion of the British realm. The chances are thus multiplying, from day to day, that there will be a vast diminution in the number of foreign recruits for the Northern Armies. To the immortal honor of the Catholic Church, it is now earnestly engaged in throwing every obstacle that it can justly create in the way of the prosecution of the war by tbe Yankee guerrillas. That it will accomplish little less than marvels in this regard I have entertained a confident belief ever since my audience with the Holy Father and my interviews with his cardinal secretary of state."
Confederate Commissioner A. Dudley Mann to Sec. of State Judah P. Benjamin, 11 March 1864
(to be continued)
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
"Under the auspices of the letter of Pio Nono [Pope Pius IX] to the President, formidable demonstrations have been made in Ireland against the efforts of Lincoln and Co. to secure additional immigrants from that portion of the British realm. The chances are thus multiplying, from day to day, that there will be a vast diminution in the number of foreign recruits for the Northern Armies. To the immortal honor of the Catholic Church, it is now earnestly engaged in throwing every obstacle that it can justly create in the way of the prosecution of the war by tbe Yankee guerrillas. That it will accomplish little less than marvels in this regard I have entertained a confident belief ever since my audience with the Holy Father and my interviews with his cardinal secretary of state."
Confederate Commissioner A. Dudley Mann to Sec. of State Judah P. Benjamin, 11 March 1864
(to be continued)
Before you go down this road, realize what you will need to show that the effort actually made any difference:
1) Union recruitment numbers for the Irish in 1863, month by month.
2) Union recruitment numbers for the Irish in 1864, month by month.
Father Bannon's effort (financed by the Confederacy, BTW, not the Catholic Church) started in very late 1863 and ended in May of 1864 (when the Confederate funds ran out. It consisted largely of letters and broadsides written and distributed by Father Bannon, acting as an agent of the Confederate government. When he ran out of Confederate money, the campaign stopped.
Now *if* his campaign had a measurable effect, you should be able to show a visible decline in Irish recruits from December of 1863 to May of 1864, probably followed by a rise after the campaign stopped.
Your claim was that this decline was equivalent to several divisions of Federal troops. As mentioned before this, assuming a Federal division was 4,000 men in early 1864 and that "several" meant three only, you are looking to show a decline of 12,000 men in the period from December 1863 to May of 1864, or 2,000 recruits/month.
It will be surprising and wonderful if you can show it. However, the only way you can is to show the sort of numbers described above, with verifiable sources. If you cannot, then you can never prove what you are trying to claim.
While you are at it, Father Bannon was captured by Union forces at Vicksburg (he was serving as a chaplain with the Missouri troops) and so would have been covered by the terms of Pemberton's surrender. In August of 1863, while visiting Richmond, he was approached by the Confederate government and recruited to visit Ireland to try to discourage Union recruiting. In a meeting with Davis and Benjamin, he suggested that he try to convince the Papal States to extend recognition. He left October 3, 1863 on the Robert E. Lee, landed in Liverpool, and headed for Rome.
Does anyone think that his diplomatic service violated the terms of his parole, since he had not been exchanged (and never was exchanged)?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
While you are at your research, factor this in:
=====
WAR DEPARTMENT,
Washington City, June 27, 1864.
The PRESIDENT:
SIR: In answer to the Senate resolution of inquiry, passed June 24, 1864, and referred by you to this Department, I have the honor to reply:
First. That no authority has been given by this Department to any one, either in this country or elsewhere, to obtain recruits in Ireland or Canada for the Army of the United States.
Second. That no recruits have been obtained in Ireland or in Canada for the Army of the United States with my knowledge or consent, and, to the best of my information and belief, none have been obtained nor any effort made to obtain them.
Third. That neither Irishmen nor Canadians have with my knowledge, approbation, or consent, or with the knowledge, approbation, or consent of any one in this Department been induced to emigrate to this country in order to enlist into the Army.
Fourth. That no measures have been adopted by this Department to arrest any such conduct, because no information of any such conduct has reached the Department, and I do not believe that it has been practiced in any instance.
I will add that no encouragement or inducement whatever has been extended by this Department to any person or persons to obtain recruits for the Army anywhere beyond the limits of the United States.
I have the honor to be, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
EDWIN M. STANTON,
Secretary of War.
=====
NAVY DEPARTMENT,
June 27, 1864.
The PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:
SIR: I have the honor to acknowledge the reference to this Department of a resolution passed in the Senate of the United States on the 24th instant, requesting the President of the United States "to inform the Senate if any authority has been given to any one, either in this country or elsewhere, to obtain recruits in Ireland or in Canada for our Army or Navy; and whether any such recruits have been obtained, or whether, to the knowledge of the Government, Irishmen or Canadians have been induced to emigrate to this country in order to be so recruited; and if so, what measures, if any, have been adopted to arrest such conduct," and to state in reply that no such order as that indicated in the resolution has been given by the Navy Department to any one, either in this country or elsewhere, nor is the Navy Department aware that any such recruits have been obtained, or that inducements have been offered to Irishmen or Canadians to emigrate to this country in order to be so recruited.
On the occasion of a visit of the U.S. steamer Kearsarge to Queenstown, Ireland, in November last, several Irishmen secreted themselves on board the vessel, were carried off in her, and when discovered were returned to that port and put ashore. This circumstance gave rise to a charge that the Kearsarge had violated the foreign enlistment act of Great Britain. Captain Winslow, commanding the Kearsarge, disavowed having violated this act or any intention of permitting others under his command to do so. Explanations have been made to the British Government, and it is presumed the matter has been satisfactorily settled.
I am, sir, with very great respect, your obedient servant,
GIDEON WELLES,
Secretary of the Navy.
=====
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
that the Irish in the U.S. would have gladly joined an army fighting in British Canada.
Staying out of the war, meant some Irish would not join the Union army.
One of the stories about the Irish in the American Civil War is that many Irish Union soldiers (reputedly 10%, or 14,000 of the 140,000 total, but I doubt anyone really knows) were dues-paying members of the Fenian society. Some of their leaders viewed the Civil War troops as being in training for a rebellion against Britain back in Ireland.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
When I opened this thread to read, I was going to ask just how many soldiers were raised from Ireland. I suspect that neither Stanton nor Welles were lying through their teeth to POTUS. So. What is the question here? Recruiting efforts that never were are thwarted by an unexchanged priest who ran out of funding?
????
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I think the efforts of the New England Immigrant Aid Society for 20 years leading up to the War of Northern Aggression ought to be considered in this regard.
"I think the efforts of the New England Immigrant Aid Society for 20 years leading up to the War of Northern Aggression ought to be considered in this regard."
In what way should that organization be considered in the War of the Rebellion?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
It appears that one-third of Union troops were foriegn born immigrants, mainly Irish, Germans, and Brits. That being the case it was likely unnecessary to recruit in Europe as many here were joining. The link gives some interesting numbers on foreign born Union recruits. http://wesclark.com/jw/foreign_soldiers.html
__________________ "Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
In what way should that organization be considered in the War of the Rebellion?
Unionblue
Possibly gaining the loyalty of the immigrants and thus keeping them for the Union instead of having them join the Confederate cause? Makes sense... the immigrants would feel a connection to the organization and New England and more likely to stand up for someone that stood up for them.
__________________ "In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Federal Recruiting in Europe- "Lincoln & Co." 
Linear Mode
