Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
You are the one who posted the King-Seward documents as some sort of proof of no-recognition...(and were much congratulated for it by the usual suspects)...now it is as you say- "fluff"...
Nope, I merely posted that as part of the complete picture of the situation. I am saying the same thing about Antonelli's interaction with both the US government and the Confederates: none of it amounted to anything in the way of a commitment. This is clear from my posts, unless you spend all your effort trying to twist things into a knot the way you do.
Perhaps you should spend more time thinking about why the Confederate Secretary of State did not believe the Papal States had recognized the Confederacy. Why do you think that was?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
New York, Jan. 30.-- The Tribune has a leading article on a recognition intrigue in which it says it has obtained a clue to the European complot wherefrom the slaveholding rebels are comforting themselves with hopes of a powerful and speedy aid to their sinking cause. Its outline is:
At an early stage of the rebellion Jeff. Davis sent a Roman Catholic Bishop Lynch, of South Carolina, to Europe, to search for sympathizers and allies, but to make Rome the focus of operations. It was not difficult for him to convince the master spirits of European reaction and absoluteism that the slaveholders' rebellion was identical in spirit with their cause, and enlist their sympathies. But Bishop Lynch went further, and assured the magnates of the Catholic Church that its expansion and predominance throughout the hemisphere would be assured by the triumph of the rebels.
In deference to these representations a secret league of the Roman Catholic powers, France, Spain and Austria, under the guidance of the Pope, has been formed, pledged to recognize the Confederacy after the 4th of March next, on the ground that it did not take part in the Presidential election.
Burlington Weekly Hawkeye (Iowa), 4 February 1865 (and appeared in several other papers)
...of course this may be just rumor to feed the anti-Catholic Know-Nothing faction of the North.
Bishop Lynch was sent in 1864, as I have already referred to in this very thread; how does this qualify as "an early stage of the rebellion"?
The nonsense about the "a secret league of the Roman Catholic powers" appears to be obvious enough -- so why are you trying to propogate it? After all, March 4 came and went and no such league surfaced to act as this newspaper proclaimed -- and as you already knew. Do you have anything at all to support a belief such a league was actually formed, or do you simply find it convenient to post rumors that you know were false?
Newspaper articles written during the war about current events have often been shown to be inaccurate; for some reason, this seems particularly common with the ones you choose. Perhaps you should spend more effort verifying the facts in the quotes you select before you post them than searching for anything at all that agrees with your desire.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
What does he base that statement on?
Does he reference some document from the government of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha? (don't see one)
That is because, as I said, this was a quote from a website that merely refers to his book. The paragraph in his book that says this does have a footnote, but I have no access to the text of the footnotes from here.
My guess, however, is that he has seen the application Ernst Raven sent from Texas to Richmond, and so probably has the right of it. You know -- the one Secretary Benjamin is referring to in his statement to the Confederate Congress, the one you are pointing to in this link:
"The one agent who is excepted from these remarks is ErnstRaven esq., who was appointed consul for the State of Texas by his highness the Duke of SaxeCoburg and Gotha, and wire applied to this Government for an exequatur on the 30th of July, 1861." as Secretary Benjamin says. Note that Secretary Benjamin does not say Mr. Raven was a consul from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha to the Confederacy.
Mr. Raven, BTW, had been the Duke's bookbinder in the 1830s, before he moved to Baltimore in 1838 and then on to Texas, and had done some furniture work for the Texas legislature before the Civil War. That Duke was Ernest I who died in 1844, which means that the last time the Duke Ernest II (born in 1818) saw Mr. Raven, the Duke was perhaps 20 years old at the most and Mr. Raven was perhaps 34. Raven is not a professional diplomat, just an alderman of Austin, Texas who seems to have seen an opportunity to make something of himself and taken advantage of it.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
CONSULS AND AGENTS FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES TO THE CONFEDERATE STATES,
1861-1865.
Great Britain:
George Moore, consul, Richmond, Va., 1861-1864.
Robert Bunch, consul, Charleston, S. C., 1861-1864.
Arthur Lynn, consul, Galveston, Tex., 1861-1864, 1865.
Charles Tulin, consul, Mobile, Ala., 1861-62.
Jamcs Magee, consul, Mobile, Ala., 1863-64.
Frederick Cridland, acting consul, Mobile, Ala.
Monsieur Portz, acting consul, Mobile, Ala.
William Mure, consul, New Orleans, La., 1861-1864.
Denis Donohue, consul, New Orleans, La., 1865.
George Coppell, acting consul,' New Orleans, La.
Henry W. Ovenden, consul, Baltimore, Md., 1861.
Frederick Bonsal, consul, Baltimore, Md., 1862-1864, 1865.
Edm. Molyneaux, consul, Savannah, Ga., 1861-1864, 1865.
A.G. Butterfield, vice-consul, Key West, Fla., 1864-65.
France:
B. Theron, agent and consul, Galveston, Tex.
Baron de St. Andr6, consul, Charleston, S. C.
Monsieur Fauconnet, jr., consul, New Orleans, La.
Monsieur Portz, vice consul, Mobile, Ala.
Spain:
Don Juan Callejon, consul, New Orleans, La.
Nunez de Moncada, consul, Charleston, S. C.
B. Theron, vice consul, Galveston, Tex.
CONFEDERATE COMMISSIONERS AND AGENTS TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES.
England: William L. Yancey, Pierre A. Rost, A. Dudley Mani Mar. 16, 1861.
Mexico: John T. Pickett May 17, 1861.
Mexico (New Leon) : J. A. Quintero May 22, 1861.
Spanish, British, Danish, West Indies: Charles J. Helm July 22, 1861.
United States of Mexico (Monterey) : J. A. Quintero Sept. 3. 1861.
England: James M. Mason; James E. Macfarland, secretary Aug. 24, 1861.
France: John Slidell; George Fustis, secretary Aug. 24, 1861.
Spain: Pierre A. Rost, William L. Yancey, A. Dudley Mann Aug. 24, 1861.
England: Henry Hotze. commercial agent - Nov. 14, 1861.
Mexico (State of Tamaulipas) : Richard Fitzpatrick, commercial agent Nov.
15, 1862.
Russia: Colonel Lucius Q. C. Lamar; Walker Fearn, secretary Nov. 19, 1862.
Mexico (Vera Cruz): Bernard Avegno, commercial agent Dec. 15, 1862.
England (Cork, Ireland) : Robert Dowling, commercial agent Mar. 7, 1863.
The Pope (Rome) : A. Dudley Mann Sept. 24, 1863.
Mexico: William Preston; Walker Fearn, secretary Jan. 7, 1864.
Spain: John Slidell Mar. 26, 1863.
All Countries: James M. Mason; James E. Macfarland, secretary Jan. 18, 1864.
States of the Church: P. N. Lynch Apr. 4, 1864.
Canada: Jacob Thompson Apr. 27, 1864.
Canada: C. C. Clay Apr. 27, 1864.
Mexico (Vera Cruz) : Emile La Sere May 30, 1864.
Bermuda: Norman S. Walker, commercial agent July 7, 1864.
------------------------------
Hi ya'll! Interesting place you have here.
Lily
Appreciate any help...
...as I am ounumbered here by about 10 to 1.
But Southerners being outnumbered is nothing new.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Appreciate any help...
...as I am ounumbered here by about 10 to 1.
But Southerners being outnumbered is nothing new.
As Confederate Secretary of State Benjamin noted to the Confederate Congress, none of these people were accredited to the Confederate government, and all of them reported home to their governments through their legations in Washington, DC. In 1863, all of them were sent home by the Confederate government because of this. The only exception he made was Ernst Raven -- who Benjamin also says had not been appointed a consul to the Confederacy.
It isn't a matter of being outnumbered. It is a matter of simply beating your head against a wall when you are wrong on the facts. Try some other issue closer to the facts and you will find more support.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Actually, what we have is evidence from you that one Catholic priest, who had served in the Confederate Army, went to Rome and Ireland in the pay of the Confederate government. In Ireland, his funds ran out, but we know that he distributed some literature. We have no evidence at all that he had any effect -- although you have been asked to provide some evidence to support your claim and have refused to do so.
Do you have anything at all to back up what you say beyond this?
Tim
I will get to this subject later...or start a new thread for it
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Perhaps you should spend more time thinking about why the Confederate Secretary of State did not believe the Papal States had recognized the Confederacy. Why do you think that was?
Tim
This opinion was issued early. Subsequent events may have changed his mind as recognition can be a process (see Phillimore).
What about the reactions of the US Secretary of State?
Based on the letter-writing between King & Seward he seems to have been quite concerned about it.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
As Confederate Secretary of State Benjamin noted to the Confederate Congress, none of these people were accredited to the Confederate government, and all of them reported home to their governments through their legations in Washington, DC. In 1863, all of them were sent home by the Confederate government because of this. The only exception he made was Ernst Raven -- who Benjamin also says had not been appointed a consul to the Confederacy.
Tim
Where does he say this?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
That is because, as I said, this was a quote from a website that merely refers to his book. The paragraph in his book that says this does have a footnote, but I have no access to the text of the footnotes from here.
My guess, however, is that he has seen the application Ernst Raven sent from Texas to Richmond, and so probably has the right of it. You know -- the one Secretary Benjamin is referring to in his statement to the Confederate Congress, the one you are pointing to in this link:
"The one agent who is excepted from these remarks is ErnstRaven esq., who was appointed consul for the State of Texas by his highness the Duke of SaxeCoburg and Gotha, and wire applied to this Government for an exequatur on the 30th of July, 1861." as Secretary Benjamin says.
Raven is "excepted from these remarks" because he did not receive his authority from the United States gov't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Note that Secretary Benjamin does not say Mr. Raven was a consul from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha to the Confederacy.
Tim
He does not have to be a citizen of SCG to be the consul representing (and at the request of) SCG.
SCG establishing a consular official in Texas and Raven applying to the Confederate gov't for his authority amounts to Virtual Recognition (see Phillimore).
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
One of the great failures of the Confederate States, which is often covered-up by historians, with what if -Great Britain and France came to the assistance of the Confederates.
But they never did, did they. And what blundering the Confederacy did, by even thinking, that assistance was coming.
Some much for the Confederacy blue sky diplomacy, and the results that never happened.
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
