Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Once again, do you have any evidence at all to back this statement up? Or is it simply your bias and desire talking?
Tim
John B. Bannon: Chaplain, Soldier and Diplomat
by James M. Gallen
....At the time of his visit to Richmond, one of the main military problems facing the Confederacy was the growing imbalance in military strength due in part to the influx of immigrants, many of them Irish, into the Union Army. On August 30, 1863, Bannon was surprised to receive a request from President Jefferson Davis to meet him at the President's house. During the visit President Davis asked Bannon to undertake a secret diplomatic mission to Ireland to discourage Irish immigrants from enlisting in the Union Army. In further conversation with Davis and Secretary of War Judah Benjamin, Bannon suggested that his mission be expanded to include an attempt to persuade the Papal States to extend recognition to the Confederacy. It was hoped that recognition by one European state would induce others to follow.
Bannon left America on October 3, 1863 aboard the Robert E. Lee. After arriving in Liverpool, England, Bannon headed for Italy. While in the Vatican he was accorded several long audiences with Pope Pius IX, during which he argued the Confederate cause. Although formal recognition was not obtained, the Pope did speak warmly of the Confederacy. In early December, Pope Pius did send a letter addressed "to the Illustrious and Honorable Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America." This was taken as a defacto recognition by many and generated widespread outrage in the North. It would also be helpful in Bannon's mission in Ireland.
After the conclusion of the Vatican effort, Bannon returned to his native Isle in October, 1863. His first duty was to write long letters to the families of fifty or sixty Irish natives who had died while fighting for the First Missouri. Bannon them approached his diplomatic mission with zeal. He found that his mission to the Vatican increased his acceptance among the Irish dlergy to circulate handbills at the major ports of departure. The handbill reported that the Irish immigrant would be cajoled to join the union Army and be sent to be slaughtered in a "fight for a People that has the greatest antipathy to his birth and creed."
Besides the handbills, Bannon employed a series of large posters which were nailed up in major ports and on the Churches of Cublin. The most effective poster, employed in 1864 contained the exchange of letters between Pope Pius IX and President Davis and a letter from Bannon. After he had won over the upper and middle classes, Bannon made an effort to reach the common people, who provided the recruits. To do this he sent a copy of his poster to every parish priest in Ireland. The poster was entitled "remnant of Christian civilization was yet dominant in the South." He concluded his statement with the assertion; "As a priest of the Catholic Church, I am anxious to see the desires of the Holy Father realized speedily, and therefore have taken this means to lay before you the expression of his sentiments on the subject of the American War, knowing that no Catholic will persevere in the advocacy of an aggression condemned by his Holiness."
The campaign by Bannon was highly effective. It is estimated the Irish recruits for the Union Army dropped two-thirds between December, 1863 and May, 1864. On May 28, 1864 Bannon reported to Secretary of State Benjamin that his money was exhausted and his mission complete. Benjamin had expressed his gratitude for the services provided by Bannon.
Bannon never returned to America. After the war he was prohibited by law from preaching at St. John's Church. He joined the Jesuit order, of which he was one of its most distinguished Irish members until his death on July 14, 1913. Although he is little remembered in America, his legacy lives on in St. John's Church which continues to serve the people of downtown St. Louis. http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/count...johnbannon.htm
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
[The campaign by Bannon was highly effective. It is estimated the Irish recruits for the Union Army dropped two-thirds between December, 1863 and May, 1864.
It is estimated by whom? Use of the passive voice denotes attempted obfusication.
And was there a corresponding exodus of US Irish to the South and mass enlistment for the Confederacy of the doughty sons of Erin?
One line in Battalion's post #21 renders this entire thread moot.
Quote:
Although formal recognition was not obtained, the Pope did speak warmly of the Confederacy.
So much for Vatican Recognition of the CSA.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
It is estimated by whom? Use of the passive voice denotes attempted obfusication.
And was there a corresponding exodus of US Irish to the South and mass enlistment for the Confederacy of the doughty sons of Erin?
Enquiring Zouaves want to know...
The article Battalion is quoting from was written by James M. Gallen, an attorney practicing in St. Louis, and I think a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Other than that, I have no information about him or what the estimate might be based on.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
On the contrary....several....
...that is several lost to the Federal armies (Irish recruits)
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Once again, do you have any evidence at all to back this statement up? Or is it simply your bias and desire talking?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
John B. Bannon: Chaplain, Soldier and Diplomat
by James M. Gallen
... The campaign by Bannon was highly effective. It is estimated the Irish recruits for the Union Army dropped two-thirds between December, 1863 and May, 1864. On May 28, 1864 Bannon reported to Secretary of State Benjamin that his money was exhausted and his mission complete. Benjamin had expressed his gratitude for the services provided by Bannon.
Nothing you posted substantiates your claim.
To be easy on you, let's say a Union division in 1864 was 4,000 men. You claimed this mission caused a loss of "several" divisions of Irish recruits to the Union. Several is more than two, so we'll be nice and say you meant three. Three divisions times 4,000 men/division is 12,000 Irish recruits you say were lost to the Union and, from the only source you give, it all occurred in a period of six months from December of 1863 to May of 1864, so we'll say your claim is to a drop of 2,000 Irish recruits/month.
Now I have looked at official reports and studies of Union and Confederate recruiting and mobilization at various times through the years. I have never seen even the slightest indictaion of a fluctuation in the numbers that would support your claim. I would, however, be more than glad to be made aware of it with solid information from you. Please present some -- or simply admit you have none.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
One line in Battalion's post #21 renders this entire thread moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by article
Although formal recognition was not obtained, the Pope did speak warmly of the Confederacy.
So much for Vatican Recognition of the CSA.
Unionblue
To All,
There are facts and opinions...
Fact- "Pope Pius did send a letter addressed 'to the Illustrious and Honorable Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.' "
Opinion- "Although formal recognition was not obtained, the Pope did speak warmly of the Confederacy."
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
To be easy on you, let's say a Union division in 1864 was 4,000 men. You claimed this mission caused a loss of "several" divisions of Irish recruits to the Union. Several is more than two, so we'll be nice and say you meant three. Three divisions times 4,000 men/division is 12,000 Irish recruits you say were lost to the Union and, from the only source you give, it all occurred in
Now I have looked at official reports and studies of Union and Confederate recruiting and mobilization at various times through the years. I have never seen even the slightest indictaion of a fluctuation in the numbers that would support your claim. I would, however, be more than glad to be made aware of it with solid information from you. Please present some -- or simply admit you have none.
Tim
If you have all these "official reports and studies" (as you claim) you should be able to disprove anything Mr. Gallen has written.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Fact- "Pope Pius did send a letter addressed 'to the Illustrious and Honorable Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.' "
Opinion- "Although formal recognition was not obtained, the Pope did speak warmly of the Confederacy."
Wrong again. While the first statement is a fact, it is also a fact that "formal recognition was not obtained". No diplomat, head of state, or student of international politics would be confused by your attempt to muddy the waters.
A statement of formal recognition would have been followed by an exchange of ambassadors or consuls. None of this happened. Please stop all these attempts to avoid simple recognition of data to obfuscate issues.
However, "the Pope did speak warmly of the Confederacy" is an example of an opinion.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
I am saying Mr. Gallen provides no support I can see for this claim and so I cannot judge the accuracy of whatever estimate he is referring to in his article. Neither can you, so what you are saying is that you are basing what you say on a source of unknown worth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
If you have all these "official reports and studies" (as you claim) you should be able to disprove anything Mr. Gallen has written.
I've read them, including the official history of US mobilization written in 1945 by the US Army. I have never seen anything to indicate a fluctuation such as you insist upon, and don't know where to start with Mr. Gallen's unspecified reference to an what has been "estimated". I won't bother to do the work until and unless you show some reason you are not just, as usual, making unsubstantiated claims because they fit your bias. Once again, do you have any basis for your claim other than your own desire for it to be so? If you do, what is it?
BTW, your constant strident claims followed by a total failure to provide supporting evidence when asked and demands that someone prove your unsupported statements wrong is another sure way to destroy your own credibility. I continue to urge you to stop doing this to yourself.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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