Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Of course they could; do you have any evidence that they did, or are you once again merely throwing stuff about to confuse the issue?
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Originally Posted by trice
Raven is not a professional diplomat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Who said he was?
No one, of course: my point was that he never was. This is evident in my post, which you have distorted with your usual method. You agree that he was strictly an amateur, then, with no reputable background as a diplomat? Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
The report of the Secretary of State (15 Sept. 1862) describes Raven as an "agent" (meaning he is an agent) and appointed by the Duke of Saxe Coburg and Gotha-
"The one agent who is excepted from these remarks is Ernst Raven esq., who was appointed consul for the State of Texas by his highness the Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and who applied to this Government for an exequatur on the 30th of July, 1861."
The word agent is being used here as a class, not a title. As is evident in the text you are using yourself, Benjamin knows he was appointed consul to the State of Texas -- quite possibly because he sent his application asking to be appointed back to Saxe-Coburg and Gotha before there was a Confederacy. He would then have asked to be appointed to the State of Texas and given the vagaries of mail and the interruptions of the war and blockade, that seems likely or possible.
In addition, from Benjamin's report the application for an exequatur came from Texas, not from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. It would thus appear that Ernst Raven made the application himself, and the paperwork did not come from Europe. It is thus possible that no one back in Saxe-Coburg and Gotha knew what was going on. This seems especially true since Duke Ernest II was well-known as a strong friend of the Union during the Civil War -- and thus unlikely to be doing what you want him to have done.
You are trying to find something that might have been and then insist that it definitely was. Those are two different things, with the first based on imagination and the second based on facts. The supposition above is just as likely, and probably much more so, than anything you have put forward so far. Realistically, there is no evidence of any nation recognizing the Confederacy, and scant reason to speculate that the Duchy of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha did.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
No, Battalion. I am merely pointing out your failure to act as a fair man. You ask things of others you consistently refuse to provide yourself. This is just one more of the reasons why your credibility is in tatters.
Here's some advice: just reply with the information. Don't be afraid. Don't be coy. Don't constantly evade. Act as an honest man who deals fairly: provide yourself what you ask of others.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
A prince of a small German state had an agent employed in Texas. Does this mean he diplomatically recognized the CSA? Or Texas, even? What effect did Saxe-Coburg have on the Civil War. There is the picture of the prince, in his wonderful uniform, and impressive hairdo. Certainly an force to be reckoned with on any battlefield. Yet what material aid did Saxe Coburg render the CSA? Or Union for that matter? Did any government consider S-C as having recognizing the CSA?
Duke Ernest II was generally regarded as a strong supporter of the Union, it seems.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Duke Ernest II was generally regarded as a strong supporter of the Union, it seems.
Regards,
Tim
..."it seems"...?
Based on what?
..."generally regarded"...
By who?
If it's general you should be able to give us some names.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
By the way, Saxe Coburg Gotha was a bit more than half the size of Rhode Island, and had 242,000 residents, at least by 1900.
Just to give you an idea of the tremendous stakes involved in SC-G's appointment of a consul to Texas.
By the way, it was formed in 1826, so if Ernest had to give the Gettysburg address to his people, you know, after the SC-G army had tipped the balance, he would have started by saying "one score and seventeen years ago."
..."it seems"...?
Based on what?
..."generally regarded"...
By who?
If it's general you should be able to give us some names.
I haven't read the work itself, but from what I have seen in secondary sources it appears to be based on Duke Ernest II's autobiobraphy published in 1887 in Berlin (3 volumes, called Memoirs of My Life and of My Time in the English translation). I haven't located a copy. What do you base your objection on?
However, since you never respond to direct questions yourself, aren't you once again being unfair here? What exactly are your qualifications and background for all your pronouncements on highly technical details of diplomatic usage in International Law? You have been asked many times -- and refuse to answer. Cat got your tongue?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
I did a short superficial look at the internet, and wikipedia describe Ernest as a Union supporter, like his brother Albert, Consort of Victoria.
While the Duchy was small, the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family was one of the best-connected in Europe. As you note Duke Ernest II's youngest brother Albert was married to Queen Victoria of Great Britain, and intervened personally in the Mason-Slidell crisis to defuse the tensions that might have led to war with the US, and a descendant of Queen Victoria & Prince Albert actually inherits the Duchy when Duke Ernest II dies in 1893. King Edward of Great Britain was a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, with the British changing the family name to Windsor during WWI. Leopold I of Belgium, crowned in 1831, was a Saxe-Coburg-Gotha: Ernest I's brother and so Ernest II's uncle. Another Uncle was Ferdinand II of Portugal (king consort 1837-53, regent for his son 1853-55) who was offered the throne of Greece (1862) and Spain (1869) but declined both.
The family was married into most of the royal houses of Europe, and obviously continues to be influential today. For example, in July 2001, Bulgaria's ex-king Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha became the first former monarch in post-communist Eastern Europe to become Prime Minister. (Being King of Communist Bulgaria after 1945 wasn't much of a job ). Another relative of Duke Ernest I in 1861 had just become Tsar of Bulgaria; this was Ferdinand I, who was the nephew of Ferdinand II of Portugal and also the grandson of King Louis Phillippe I of France on his mother's side -- which made him a first cousin of Prince Albert, Queen Victoria, Leopold II of Belgium and the Carlotta who married the Austrian Maximillian who Napoleon III was trying to make Emperor of Mexico during the Civil War.
Duke Ernest II himself was a strong supporter of various plans to unite Germany into a single country throughout the period from the 1840s to the Unification of Germany in 1870-71. He favored a strong central authority and was opposed to rebellion and revolution against that authority. In 1866, he attached his Duchy's future to Prussia to further those purposes. The concepts of secession and parts of a nation breaking away from the central authority were completely opposite to what he stood for in his political life. Doesn't sound as if he would have given much support to the Confederacy.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
This, IMHO, is one of those things that doesn't make it into most CW books.
__________________ F. S. Powers
Union Ancersor: Pvt Arnuah Norton, 60th Ohio. (G-G-G Grandfather) Died at Salisbury NC, November 3, 1864
Confederate Ancestors: Captain Thomas A. Morrow, 29th Texas Cavalry (G-G-G- Uncle) and 2LT George W. Morrow, 31st Texas Cavalry (G-G-G Grandfather). Both survived the war
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). Another relative of Duke Ernest I in 1861 had just become Tsar of Bulgaria; this was Ferdinand I, who was the nephew of Ferdinand II of Portugal and also the grandson of King Louis Phillippe I of France on his mother's side -- which made him a first cousin of Prince Albert, Queen Victoria, Leopold II of Belgium and the Carlotta who married the Austrian Maximillian who Napoleon III was trying to make Emperor of Mexico during the Civil War.
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