Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Why not? The entire concept of a legal "right of secession" was unresolved in 1860. Many people, North and South, felt that there was no such "right". For example, Robert E. Lee used words like "anarchy" and "treason" when talking of secession, and said he believed the Founding Fathers had never intended it to exist.
Are we moving from Sumter on to the legal question of secession? If so, then I will abstain.
Russ settled that question on here years ago, and I will point you to that old thread for any possible questions or objections. In fact, I would encourage a review of it.
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As a result, it is entirely legitimate to question everything you want to claim as fact here, because it was never established as fact.
What facts have not been established? I am not sure what you are saying.
What facts have not been established? I am not sure what you are saying.
As I said, the entire issue of a "right of secession" was unresolved in 1860. If it was illegal to secede, or to do so in the method South Carolina attempted, everything you are pointing to would be illegal acts.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
I think the Cotton States seceded too hastily. That is the biggest problem I have with the secession side.
So you think the secession of the first seven states was wrong?
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
So would you consider Gardner's action a casus belli? Its not exactly the equivalent of the Nazis marching into Poland....
I was asked why the Carolinians surrounded the arsenal. I was merely answering that question. They did it in response to Gardner's actions -- which actions got him relieved of duty. So, not only did the Carolinians find them offensive and provocative, but also his bosses in Washington did.
As I said, the entire issue of a "right of secession" was unresolved in 1860. If it was illegal to secede, or to do so in the method South Carolina attempted, everything you are pointing to would be illegal acts.
SC had not seceded, unilateral secession was illegal. It had no basis for it's existence under Federal Law or Constitution. The state gov't and all the citizens who supported it, were in a state of insurrection (or rebellion, if you prefer), against lawful government preventing proper application of the laws and regulations of the Federal Gov't.
With the coming of Lincoln, the Legally elected Executive Officer of the Federal Gov't, working with the legally elected Congress IN Washington D.C. began the process of returning the insurrectionist (rebellious) states to their proper place under the authority of the laws, regulations and Constitution of the United States of America.
Every thing Lincoln and The Congress did or did not do, was what they considered necessary to effect the desired return of the rebel (insrrectionary) states to their 'lawful' status Within the Union.
Lincoln said the southern states were not out of the union and attempted to bring them to the realization of the logic of this view, the south rejected that logic, but on Palm Sunday, 1865, it was proven that Lincoln had been correct and the south wrong. The South had not and had never been, out of the Union.
I am a big pro-union guy myself, but for purposes of this thread you're looking at it too literally. Historically when such crises had started somehow someway they had found some sort of compromise. In the immediate threads here Tim and Hawglips are essentially discussing events between SC's secession and the firing on Fort Sumter. Between those two events, Tim is pointing at actions such as the seizure of Federal installations and overt preparations for war as evidence that the South is acting aggressively and in a manner that is provoking a violent Federal response. On the other hand, hawglips is responding that, in his opinion, the actions of the Federals actually in SC, are actually goading the South into firing the first shot.
Sure. But the existence of the "right of secession" was in doubt, and certainly never established to exist. It was merely a theory, an "if". Even assuming something like it was permitted under the US Constitution - a really, really, BIG "if" -- no court would be likely to admit such a thing could be done in the fashion the states attempted it in 1860-61.
The problem is that all of your arguments insist that the South had this "right". If they don't, everything they did was automatically in the wrong, and therefore all the Federal actions in response to their acts are justified; you might even say remarkably restrained.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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