Slavery/Illegal immigration

[custersluck13]

So whats the difference? My best friend, since I was 10 or so, who generally we agree on much, really differ here. He, having lived in Michigan his whole life, see's illegal immigration as "well, we need a cheap source of labor" and Americans "dont want to do those jobs" and "whats wrong with Julio mowing your lawn?" I have seen the situation differently. Both as a Marine stationed in California, now as a trucker. Ive seen the gang war fare up close in SO. Cal...As a recruiter, I talked to kids..who no longer spoke Spanish..went through the entire California school system only to find out, when they are trying to enlist, they were illegal! I see docks today filled with illegals. Americans wont do dock work? I was in Richmond, VA recently. I met up with a foreman there..real good ol boy, and so am I..we got on..then I met his workforce. He was bragging how for 10$ he got each one false ssn's and DL's. You know what they were doing? Recycling lithiumn lights. Another job Americans wont do?

Ok..what has this to do in a Civil War forum? Well..isnt this the whole big million dollar question? As far as I can tell, the north did not one way or the other really care about the african population..it was strictly economic. Cheaper to get a bunch of Irish immigrants, pay below slave wages..(no food, clothes, rooms, etc)...slavery was simply a threat to their pocket books. I see the same thing happening now. Why pay Americans and help with medical bills when you can pay a few illegals nothing, and if they complain, heck..they are illegal...you could do the worst I suppose. Seems to me, nobody wants to cough up cash for work, so both situations came about. The real reason the war was fought was money. The same reason neither Republicans or Dems want to touch it today. I think we still live in the history we are studying here, folks! Lincoln and Davis both knew this. Yet, they fired up their respective constituants with rhetoric. Sad. So many died for the same old reason. And the beat goes on again...Your thoughts, please!..Leigh

[ole]

Way to volatile a subject for me to even think about touching, Leigh. Sorry.

Ole

[custersluck13]

I know. It just been bugging me. Seems like the question of the war is still the same thing. Nothing much has changed, has it? Sorry..I better stick to what I like/know best...troops! Politics isnt my strong point!

[Mark Wadsworth]

I am not going to think of even putting my 2 cents in on this subject. How ever I do see your point. Cheep laber cost less then slaves.

[Ozark Iron John]

Lord knows, if I'm anything, I'm controversial.

I was talking with a man earlier today about some disturbing trends I have noticed in regards to immigration and American history.

Did you know that Lord Dunmore, the Royal Governor of Virginia, freed and armed black African slaves to fight against white rebels? The King's man used the threat of black African slaves to coerce our Founding Fathers into submission. Cornwallis did the same thing before Yorktown? Between 350 and 500 black African slaves responded to his call and ran off from their homes to help dig trenches and fortifications for British Redcoats.

The New England Immigrant Aid Society brought boatloads upon boatloads of new comers into the heartland of America before the war. Minnesota, Iowa, Kansas and Nebraska were all populated by immigrants from Europe. Do any of you all ever wonder where all of them Yankee soldiers came from in the first place? Do any of you all ever wonder why the Statue of Liberty stands in New York Harbor and faces east towards Europe? She sure doesn't face west towards Asia or south towards Latin America. She sure doesn't face towards Africa.

I think they're doing it again, this time with Illegal Aliens and Third World Immigrants that are Comin' to America in droves. At the very same time that Europe is uniting under the European Union and they're talking about creating a North American Union..... At the very same time that they are exporting all of the high technology, manufacturing and production jobs out of the US ..... They're bringing low skilled uneducated guest workers into the country to do the jobs we the People won't do for less than a living wage.....

I might be a Conspiracy Theorist Lunatic Nutjob, but that ain't up for debate.

I believe there are stark similarities between the African Slave Trade prior to the American Revolution, activities of entities like the New England Immigrant Aid Society prior to the American Civil War and what's going on now with regards to Comprehensive Immigration Reform.

[Dred]

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

I might be a Conspiracy Theorist Lunatic Nutjob, but that ain't up for debate.

No debate here.

[cw1865]

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

The New England Immigrant Aid Society brought boatloads upon boatloads of new comers into the heartland of America before the war. Minnesota, Iowa, Kansas and Nebraska were all populated by immigrants from Europe. Do any of you all ever wonder where all of them Yankee soldiers came from in the first place? Do any of you all ever wonder why the Statue of Liberty stands in New York Harbor and faces east towards Europe? She sure doesn't face west towards Asia or south towards Latin America. She sure doesn't face towards Africa..{emphasis supplied}

I would say probably because that is the way the harbor faces. But I note a particular strain in the post and unless I am reading between the lines, and again correct me if I am wrong, I am interpreting that statement to support European immigration vis-a-vis immigration from the rest of the world?

Go to Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, the Eastern Europeans are still coming, the Russians are actually coming in droves (didn't we fight the Cold War to keep Russians out of the country? joking, I really have no gripe with the Russians)

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

I think they're doing it again, this time with Illegal Aliens and Third World Immigrants that are Comin' to America in droves. At the very same time that Europe is uniting under the European Union and they're talking about creating a North American Union..... At the very same time that they are exporting all of the high technology, manufacturing and production jobs out of the US ..... They're bringing low skilled uneducated guest workers into the country to do the jobs we the People won't do for less than a living wage......

First off, if they actually create a North American Union, who do you think will be the engine of that union. The United States. Politically, Canadians are not going to join the union and neither are the Mexicans, I think if you read more about the North American Union, and frankly I have not read that much about it, only an article here and there, it seems to me that it is a thinly veiled effort for the US to finally get Canada and Mexico.

The US is also berated by several Third World countries, specifically South Africa and the Phillipines because we are draining these countries of skilled nursing, but to charachterize illegal immigration as 'they're bringing' mischarachterizes the phenomena. Illegal immigration is still fundamentally a choice that an individual makes, the illegal immigrant is not getting a memo in the mail to tell him to cross at 2:00 AM when the Border Patrol isn't looking. Before you condemn the illegals, try to have some empathy for their lives as well.

First, an individual who is acculturated in a foreign culture has to devise a plan, save resources (which for him is more significant because wages in that country are lower), then he physically has to brave the Border Patrol, travel to a place where he will keep warm and find work, often leaving beloved family members behind. If anything, this particular individual is at least showing a 'get up and go' mentality.

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

I believe there are stark similarities between the African Slave Trade prior to the American Revolution, activities of entities like the New England Immigrant Aid Society prior to the American Civil War and what's going on now with regards to Comprehensive Immigration Reform.

They are three different periods of history. But the trans-Atlantic slave trade is clearly a demand pull system, migration of free peoples is clearly a supply side system. The primary cause for immigration remains economic disparities. (political considerations are still a strong motivating factor)

Be happy to live in a country that people continue to flock too.

[unionblue]

cw1865,

Excellent points. Thanks for sharing them.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[custersluck13]

Really, that was my point here. When politicians start exhorting folks to war, usually look for the monetary reason.

[custersluck13]

Excellent post, Ozark! But now Europe has its own problems. It is becoming more muslim by the day. Essentially, they are being invaded.